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You thought EvE had a real economy?

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Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#1 - 2013-03-29 18:37:09 UTC
A real economy is kept in check by supply and demand.
But when endless alts and lots of isk can manipulate the market, and the average player has no idea what's going on, is it a real market?

Case in point, the character market.
When people put up specialized alts, for silly amounts of isk, then use alts to bid up the price, or even appear to buy character with an alt, then relist it later, how is it possible to determine it's real value?

At least in the market, you have some mediocre data with which to make a valuation on, but in the character market, which is flooded with characters, there is no way to know what's really happening.

Even in the regular market, all it takes is 10-20 Billion, and you can completely trash a number of items, and make lots of isk, at the expense of others.

In December I decided to try this out for myself, I flipped the Gila market and bought up all the Cheap BPC's. For minimal effort and minimal risk, I made about 7 billion over the course of a month or two. One run out with the BPC's, one jump back with the hulls, that was the extent of my risk.
I drove Gilas from 175 mil to over 280 mil for a short period, and now they still hover around 240-250 mil, even though I dumped all the ships back in months ago.
It's obvious that some other players jumped in as well and are still playing it.
The amusing thing about this is, Gilas just aren't worth that much, particularly after the AI update that likes to kill drones. They are fun ships, and a gang with sentries is evil, but as a pve ship, they aren't all that anymore.

So, is it a real economy, when things can be manipulated like this, and there is no possibility of determining actual value, or more importantly, who is doing what?
In the real world, people work full time to uncover these schemes, in EVE, it's not even possible, since you don't have access to the required data.



yes, I'm kind of bored today...Lol


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#2 - 2013-03-29 18:40:49 UTC
/yawns


----> Market Discussions



☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#3 - 2013-03-29 18:42:06 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
So, is it a real economy, when things can be manipulated like this, and there is no possibility of determining actual value, or more importantly, who is doing what?
Sounds more like a case of “because” rather than “in spite of”. So, sure.
Spondoo Lix
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-03-29 18:44:56 UTC
Any item is worth what it's purchaser will pay for it.

Markets are manipulated in the Real World all the time. Cartels control things like oil, diamonds, cocaine. Insider trading is rife in many markets.

Maybe we have slightly better access to information in the Real, but I think the fundamentals aren't all that different.
stoicfaux
#5 - 2013-03-29 18:46:42 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
A real economy is kept in check by supply and demand.
But when endless alts and lots of isk can manipulate the market, and the average player has no idea what's going on, is it a real market?

Yes.

Alts == corporations, shell corporations, international locations (i.e. cherry pick whose laws you follow and what taxes you (don't) pay), etc.

Isk Manipulation == You seriously haven't been paying attention to the news, have you?


Quote:
In the real world, people work full time to uncover these schemes, in EVE, it's not even possible, since you don't have access to the required data.

Same as in the real world. Normally watchdog agencies are overworked, understaffed, or limited (crippled) by legislation passed via lobbying efforts. Public information/oversight laws (such as Sorbane-Oxley) start out designed to prevent "schemes" but they wind up being watered-down (gutted) during the law-making process by special interests into near uselessness.

The ONLY difference between Eve and RL markets, is that in Eve, there really is an "Illuminati" that controls the whole world (that would be CCP.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-03-29 18:48:13 UTC
Of course it is supply and demand. In the example you gave people were willing to pay that price for the Gilas. If you raised the price too excessively then no one would pay for it enless they are desperate. Most items are valued only a little above their build cost, and in fact some items are even priced lower than the cost to build them for some stupid reason.

If people really think you are charging too much of an excessive price then they can always go and gather that resource of build that item themselves. Enless it is in the case of a monopoly which has sole control over a resource, but most of the items in eve are not held by a monopoly.
ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#7 - 2013-03-29 18:50:18 UTC
Thread moved to Market Discussions.

ISD Cura Ursus

Lieutenant Commander

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#8 - 2013-03-29 18:54:09 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
A real economy is kept in check by supply and demand.
But when endless alts and lots of isk can manipulate the market, and the average player has no idea what's going on, is it a real market?

Case in point, the character market.
When people put up specialized alts, for silly amounts of isk, then use alts to bid up the price, or even appear to buy character with an alt, then relist it later, how is it possible to determine it's real value?

At least in the market, you have some mediocre data with which to make a valuation on, but in the character market, which is flooded with characters, there is no way to know what's really happening.

Even in the regular market, all it takes is 10-20 Billion, and you can completely trash a number of items, and make lots of isk, at the expense of others.

In December I decided to try this out for myself, I flipped the Gila market and bought up all the Cheap BPC's. For minimal effort and minimal risk, I made about 7 billion over the course of a month or two. One run out with the BPC's, one jump back with the hulls, that was the extent of my risk.
I drove Gilas from 175 mil to over 280 mil for a short period, and now they still hover around 240-250 mil, even though I dumped all the ships back in months ago.
It's obvious that some other players jumped in as well and are still playing it.
The amusing thing about this is, Gilas just aren't worth that much, particularly after the AI update that likes to kill drones. They are fun ships, and a gang with sentries is evil, but as a pve ship, they aren't all that anymore.

So, is it a real economy, when things can be manipulated like this, and there is no possibility of determining actual value, or more importantly, who is doing what?
In the real world, people work full time to uncover these schemes, in EVE, it's not even possible, since you don't have access to the required data.



yes, I'm kind of bored today...Lol





Quote:

e·con·o·my
/iˈkänəmē/
Noun
The wealth and resources of a country or region, esp. in terms of the production and consumption of goods and services.
Adjective
(of a product) Offering the best value for the money: "an economy pack".
Synonyms
thrift - husbandry - saving - frugality - parsimony


Yes, eve has a real economy.

is it exactly the same as the global economy on earth? not in all ways

yes
Super spikinator
Hegemonous Conscripts
#9 - 2013-03-29 19:10:59 UTC
The only difference between EvE and RL economies is that you aren't allowed to run market bots in EvE.
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#10 - 2013-03-29 19:20:03 UTC
You must be new here.

Tell more about how real markets work?
Alex Grison
Grison Universal
#11 - 2013-03-29 20:30:10 UTC
Rebecha Pucontis wrote:
Of course it is supply and demand. In the example you gave people were willing to pay that price for the Gilas. If you raised the price too excessively then no one would pay for it enless they are desperate. Most items are valued only a little above their build cost, and in fact some items are even priced lower than the cost to build them for some stupid reason.

If people really think you are charging too much of an excessive price then they can always go and gather that resource of build that item themselves. Enless it is in the case of a monopoly which has sole control over a resource, but most of the items in eve are not held by a monopoly.


In many cases it can be a good idea to sell items at a small loss.

I do this with some ships in certain locations.

Why? you might ask.

Because you use the ships to drive the demmand for other items that are sold at a higher margin. such as pvp gear.

people want a "one stop shop" where they can get their ship,get their gear and go into action.

provide nice cheap ships and people load up on gear and then die in a glorious ball of FIRE

yes
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-03-29 20:39:54 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:

I drove Gilas from 175 mil to over 280 mil for a short period, and now they still hover around 240-250 mil, even though I dumped all the ships back in months ago.
It's obvious that some other players jumped in as well and are still playing it.
The amusing thing about this is, Gilas just aren't worth that much, particularly after the AI update that likes to kill drones. They are fun ships, and a gang with sentries is evil, but as a pve ship, they aren't all that anymore.


I still PvE with a Gila, and plenty of others do too. They are basically used like Ishtars, but with lower skill requirements.

Also, the Gila was a 'flavor of the month' PvP ship for a bit there, and several big name nullsec alliances were buying up fleets of them to goof off with.

Various wars and alliance movements also disrupted Gila bpc farming in Venal. Matter of fact, I still have some bpcs out in Venal that I bought up last year in the 100-120mil range. But back then, Legion of Death effectively owned Venal and they could fairly safely run Guristas missions, keeping prices down.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#13 - 2013-03-29 21:23:06 UTC
OP are you honestly naive enough to think that the things you described do not happen in real life? here is some reading material for you.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#14 - 2013-03-29 21:26:10 UTC
the eve market is extremely complex and much more robust then 99.99% of people will ever understand.
flakeys
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-03-29 22:00:31 UTC
OP ,



If i where you i'd do an indepth view on the price for rice or oil for example over the last years in that reall world you are talking about and then come back and tell us how it is just supply-demand wich sets the price for our '' common goods'' .



And offcourse we also have : this is a game as such your thread title is answered before you pressed post.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#16 - 2013-03-29 22:39:07 UTC
The problem is not that EvE's economy isn't like the real world economy. The problem is that the real world economy is like EvE's. For that reason alone you should weep for the future of capitalism.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0