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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#301 - 2013-03-29 19:53:21 UTC
As a side note, why not some Navy cruisers of the other T1 hulls? I think a Navy Arbitrator would be damned sexy!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#302 - 2013-03-29 19:55:53 UTC
Pelea Ming wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Beam are already the best tracking LR weapon in game. What would make a good beam platform ? To my knowledge, problem of beam is scorch being too good in the ranges beam could operate.

Exactly


Nah, this isn't so true IMO. Beams are actually quite powerful for kiting on hulls that don't have an optimal bonus (Zealot, now NOmen). It's the same argument for why people should use 650 artillery instead of 425mm ACs.

-Liang

But that's actually the central theme to the argument, that people don't want to use beams on hulls with range boosts because pulse with scorch perform better.


I know, and your central theme is wrong. Scorch barely reaches out to unbonused unoverheated T2 point range.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#303 - 2013-03-29 20:07:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:

Beam are already the best tracking LR weapon in game. What would make a good beam platform ? To my knowledge, problem of beam is scorch being too good in the ranges beam could operate.

Exactly


Nah, this isn't so true IMO. Beams are actually quite powerful for kiting on hulls that don't have an optimal bonus (Zealot, now NOmen). It's the same argument for why people should use 650 artillery instead of 425mm ACs.

-Liang

But that's actually the central theme to the argument, that people don't want to use beams on hulls with range boosts because pulse with scorch perform better.


I know, and your central theme is wrong. Scorch barely reaches out to unbonused unoverheated T2 point range.

-Liang

on a ship with hull range boosts, it works very nicely, especially if you throw on a mod to give that range abit of a push.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#304 - 2013-03-29 20:27:44 UTC
HPL without a range bonus barely gets to 30km with lots of pushing. The fact that you aren't using beams doesn't mean that there isn't a completely valid use case for them. People didn't use 650 Arty Canes either, despite the fact they were overwhelmingly better than 425mm AC canes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#305 - 2013-03-29 20:28:28 UTC
Ok i've changed my mind, i took a look at the Navy omen and its ****.

It has a useless highslot
the dps is terrible (It struggles to break 300 dps with scorch)
The fittings are terrible, you can't really put anything on it.

Its an armor tanker so you can't kite with it, the best you can do is keep range as long as you can but it can't really deal with getting caught. Its just pretty.. bad..

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#306 - 2013-03-29 20:45:15 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok i've changed my mind, i took a look at the Navy omen and its ****.

It has a useless highslot
the dps is terrible (It struggles to break 300 dps with scorch)
The fittings are terrible, you can't really put anything on it.

Its an armor tanker so you can't kite with it, the best you can do is keep range as long as you can but it can't really deal with getting caught. Its just pretty.. bad..

Other points aside, it always amuses me when someone asserts that a kite ship has no use for a utility high.

As for being an armor tanker, if it has to rely on it's "tank" you've done something wrong.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#307 - 2013-03-29 20:54:27 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok i've changed my mind, i took a look at the Navy omen and its ****.

It has a useless highslot
the dps is terrible (It struggles to break 300 dps with scorch)
The fittings are terrible, you can't really put anything on it.

Its an armor tanker so you can't kite with it, the best you can do is keep range as long as you can but it can't really deal with getting caught. Its just pretty.. bad..

Other points aside, it always amuses me when someone asserts that a kite ship has no use for a utility high.

As for being an armor tanker, if it has to rely on it's "tank" you've done something wrong.



1. utility high only has a job on kiters to neut down frigates. The navy omen however 1. doesn't have any cap. 2. doesn't have any fittings to fit a med neut.
2. " if it has to rely on it's "tank" you've done something wrong" So you're only going to fight slow blaster boats? This isn't a frigate.. A lot of its targets are going to have comparable range and speed.. So yes tank matters.

Don't be bad.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#308 - 2013-03-29 21:44:34 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ok i've changed my mind, i took a look at the Navy omen and its ****.

It has a useless highslot
the dps is terrible (It struggles to break 300 dps with scorch)
The fittings are terrible, you can't really put anything on it.

Its an armor tanker so you can't kite with it, the best you can do is keep range as long as you can but it can't really deal with getting caught. Its just pretty.. bad..


The useless high slot isn't that big of a deal. I'll probably put an auto targeter in it for the extra (drone) targets, or maybe a salvager for all the sweet sweet T2 salvage. The commentary about armor tankers not kiting is pure bullshit, though I'll readily admit the tank is a bit light on it. It's not that big of a deal to me though - likely because I'm used to flying around in 10k EHP "cruiser" hulls. The thing that I think is most concerning is the very low natural DPS. It's a really big deal, and I don't know whether or not it'll be enough to really make the ship generally worthwhile. If it's not, I'm sure the dev team will make another balancing pass to smooth out the wrinkles.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#309 - 2013-03-29 21:45:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
I'm fairly sure this change to the Navy Omen is for the benefit of fleet warfare. In fact, a Navy Omen is better at Being a pseudo-AHAC compared to the Stabber Fleet Issue. Having used both ships and lead those lame played out fleets. I can attest to the Omen Navy's effectiveness in that regard.

As far as solo?

I've used both armor and shield Omen Navy Issues with success. I prefered using the shield version but I use both in the same way (skirmishing).

When using the armor version I always used a capacitor booster because I get very upset when I lose capacitor to death.

I used neutralisers on both setups on the armor version and in general. Neutralisers are a good substitute for a stasis webifier. Either in turning off a frigates propulsion module or bringing capacitor low enough for the second needed to warp off.

Now.

I have used the shield and armor Zealot solo 1 year ago or so. Personally, I have always felt the Zealot would be alot better if it had drones. If this change goes threw. Then I'll use a armor-Navy Omen with a AAR, armor plate and cap booster. Basically a copy of the Zealot but better based on the proposed changes.

Anyway. I've also used the Scyth and Osprey faction ships solo. Personally, I would love some more power grid and CPU on the Scyth and maybe the Osprey can get a bonus to shield hit points per level? Kinda like the Augoror. Otherwise, everything seems ok.

Oh! Give the Stabber Fleet Issue a 50/50 drone bay. Might as well v0v

- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Viribus
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#310 - 2013-03-29 21:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Viribus
Pelea Ming wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Ahahahaha the Omen Navy will actually do less DPS than a regular Omen

I didn't think when Fozzie said it'd be a "big slicer" it would also have slicer damage and slicer tank

Wait, seriously? Mind showing me the numbers for that?


Formula for effective turrets is (actual turrets * (damage multiplier / RoF multiplier))

Regular omen now gets 6.66 effective turrets (5 * (1 / 0.75))

Proposed NOmen gets 6 effective turrets, or 10% less dps (4 * (1.5 / 1))

Current nomen gets 8 effective turrets (5 * (1 / 0.625))

Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ignore that, he is bad.


lmao learn 2 math SCURB

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#311 - 2013-03-29 21:50:52 UTC
Viribus wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Ahahahaha the Omen Navy will actually do less DPS than a regular Omen

I didn't think when Fozzie said it'd be a "big slicer" it would also have slicer damage and slicer tank

Wait, seriously? Mind showing me the numbers for that?


Formula for effective turrets is (actual turrets * (damage multiplier / RoF multiplier))

Regular omen now gets 6.66 effective turrets (5 * (1 / 0.75))

Proposed NOmen gets 6 effective turrets, or 10% less dps (4 * (1.25 / 1))

Current nomen gets 8 effective turrets (5 * (1 / 0.625))

Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Ignore that, he is bad.


lmao learn 2 math SCURB


You're totally right, i thought it lost the utility high slot, not the gun.

Quote:
The commentary about armor tankers not kiting is pure bullshit


i didn't say armor tankers couldn't kite, i said they couldn't permakite reliably.. Thus need to be able to deal with getting caught

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#312 - 2013-03-29 22:00:41 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

i didn't say armor tankers couldn't kite, i said they couldn't permakite reliably.. Thus need to be able to deal with getting caught


All kiting ships need to be able to deal with getting caught. I'm not sure why you think that armor tanking is any different there?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2013-03-29 22:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pelea Ming
Viribus wrote:
Pelea Ming wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Ahahahaha the Omen Navy will actually do less DPS than a regular Omen

I didn't think when Fozzie said it'd be a "big slicer" it would also have slicer damage and slicer tank

Wait, seriously? Mind showing me the numbers for that?


Formula for effective turrets is (actual turrets * (damage multiplier / RoF multiplier))

Regular omen now gets 6.66 effective turrets (5 * (1 / 0.75))

Proposed NOmen gets 6 effective turrets, or 10% less dps (4 * (1.5 / 1))

Then this completely proves my reservations about it's DPS cut being to significant.

-edited to fix quotes-
Viribus
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#314 - 2013-03-29 22:09:00 UTC
If you want to test it out, just put 4 turrets on a Harbinger, it gets the same 10% bonus to damage per level

For reference, this works out to ~290 dps with heavy pulses, 2x heat sinks, perfect skills, and scorch

Literally hits like a frigate

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#315 - 2013-03-29 22:15:57 UTC
Viribus wrote:
If you want to test it out, just put 4 turrets on a Harbinger, it gets the same 10% bonus to damage per level

For reference, this works out to ~290 dps with heavy pulses, 2x heat sinks, perfect skills, and scorch

Literally hits like a frigate


290 DPS at what range again? Does that include drones?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Viribus
Dark Enlightenment
New Eden Alliance 99013733
#316 - 2013-03-29 22:21:06 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Viribus wrote:
If you want to test it out, just put 4 turrets on a Harbinger, it gets the same 10% bonus to damage per level

For reference, this works out to ~290 dps with heavy pulses, 2x heat sinks, perfect skills, and scorch

Literally hits like a frigate


290 DPS at what range again? Does that include drones?

-Liang


35km, a flight of warrior IIs is a whopping 80 dps (which still doesn't bring it up to even the turret DPS of the current NOmen), any bigger drones are useless if you're kiting

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#317 - 2013-03-29 22:21:36 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

i didn't say armor tankers couldn't kite, i said they couldn't permakite reliably.. Thus need to be able to deal with getting caught


All kiting ships need to be able to deal with getting caught. I'm not sure why you think that armor tanking is any different there?

-Liang


And your 10k ehp kiters can?


Armor kiting needs it more because they are slower and less agile thus more likely to get caught, simple as that.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#318 - 2013-03-29 22:23:28 UTC
Yeah, they deal with being caught quite well actually. Even the armor tanked ones.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#319 - 2013-03-29 22:24:20 UTC
Viribus wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Viribus wrote:
If you want to test it out, just put 4 turrets on a Harbinger, it gets the same 10% bonus to damage per level

For reference, this works out to ~290 dps with heavy pulses, 2x heat sinks, perfect skills, and scorch

Literally hits like a frigate


290 DPS at what range again? Does that include drones?

-Liang


35km, a flight of warrior IIs is a whopping 80 dps (which still doesn't bring it up to even the turret DPS of the current NOmen), any bigger drones are useless if you're kiting


Ok, so we're talking about 370 DPS at 35-40km? Which frigate was doing that much DPS at that range again?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#320 - 2013-03-29 22:24:47 UTC
Liang, I appreciate that your attempting to play the role of devil's advocate here, but all your points so far about this specifically were addressed earlier in the thread and agreed upon to be counter to what your raising them as.