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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#241 - 2013-03-28 21:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Just a side note here.

A lot of people seem to think Minmatar are getting roughed up pretty hard lately, but you need to be realistic.

Most Minmatar ships that actually saw any use were head and shoulders above the rest of the pack. It only makes sense that where other (subpar) ships are getting boosted the FOTM Minmatar ships will get modest nerfs (and I do mean modest) to bring them all into line. If they boosted the formerly subpar ship all the way up to match the OP Minmatar best of breed the end result would be invalidating the need for BC and T2 AHacs.

All of these hulls are well on their way to having their own, fully justified, niches and levels of play... well balanced against each other.

Let's also not forget that the several Minmatar hulls that were formerly unused because THEY were considered subpar have been buffed the point where they are amazingly fun to fly for the first time as well (Breacher comes to mind, among others)... so lets drop the martyr act from this point on. It really doesn't have any substance to it.

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Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#242 - 2013-03-28 21:42:33 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I'm calling it now.

Before release the scythe fleet issue will be changed.

7.5% medium turret fire rate per level OR 10% medium turret damage per level
10% explosive missile damage per level, possibly adding 5% for the other damage types

There's no way 8 effective turrets on the scythe FI is going live.


I actually like the idea of 10% med turret damage. Would have a similar alpha damage as muninn with arties. Would need a LOT more PG to put 720's on though.

One more note on SciFi is the signature radius: It is 90. Its AB speed will be over 900m/s.

In its current state it can also serve as a tweed armor ship with a lot of ewar.....or it can form its own genre as tweed shield doctrine.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#243 - 2013-03-28 21:44:14 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:
I'm calling it now.

Before release the scythe fleet issue will be changed.

7.5% medium turret fire rate per level OR 10% medium turret damage per level
10% explosive missile damage per level, possibly adding 5% for the other damage types

There's no way 8 effective turrets on the scythe FI is going live.


I actually like the idea of 10% med turret damage. Would have a similar alpha damage as muninn with arties. Would need a LOT more PG to put 720's on though.

One more note on SciFi is the signature radius: It is 90. Its AB speed will be over 900m/s.

In its current state it can also serve as a tweed armor ship with a lot of ewar.....or it can form its own genre as tweed shield doctrine.

I'm being dense... tweed?

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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#244 - 2013-03-28 22:36:56 UTC
VNI needs more CPU. So does my ishtar, now that I think about it.
MOL0TOK
NOCTURNAL TORTURE
#245 - 2013-03-28 23:30:12 UTC  |  Edited by: MOL0TOK
You want kill Navy Omen???
I see 4 turrets with 50% DAMAGE, but now 5 turrets with 37,5% ROF more better! I see 50m3 drone bay but how you be use 5 medium drones with optimal bonuse of turrets after 4 december patch? I see redused capacitor recharge and no bonuses to turrets capacitor use.
Hands off from Omen Navy!

Бил, бью и буду бить! / to Kerzhakoved /
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#246 - 2013-03-29 00:19:40 UTC
The RUS Hunter wrote:
Some really bitter Amarr in here, some really bitter minnie in here, over all you qq nerds need to chill out, these are the first pass changes, instead of raging, write your thoughts out and propose numbers.

No Flyingnerdragepockets either.

how about ill let you know when something is being changed with the tengu, until then nobody cares to read anything you have to say.

some dude wrote:


What is your point with multiple fittings? One can fit a vagabond as an armor buffed brawler or a myrmidon as a shield tanked kiter. One simply won’t because those fits are subpar to the intended roles of the ships, just as your idea on how to fit the navy omen is subpar to the intended role of the ship. You mention the navy omen as a giant slicer that will be pointed and popped in seconds, taking a quick look on how you fly your slicers concludes that you intend to fit the navy omen as a brawler, which it is not intended to be. The right fit combined with it's speed makes it really hard to catch if flown right, so I disagree with it being easy to catch and pop. That in combination with it's range bonus makes it a solid kiter. Or exactly how did you intend to fly the ship now again?


propose me a realistic fit for the nomen, cause i all i can think of for the mids is microwarp, long point, cap injector,
lets explain WHY.
1 13ms faster than stabber fleet(yes we are going to use its RIVAL ship) with loki linked ships (yes everything is loki linked, nobody flies without them, i dont care if you do) so yeah no real speed evasion, mass is nearly identical infact the nomen is heavier
2 no real means of capacitor regeneration so you can fire you guns for 30 seconds or use a cap injector, No one is going to kite at 18km with a pimp nos cuz hey guess why? well most cruiser t2 long range ammo can hit that far, 18km.
3 lets take it beyond the 20km, with no viable tank and devoting all lows to speed and turrent mods LIKE A NORMAL SLICER(but unable to really fit speed mods it will most likely be fitting reactor controls for 'big guns to kite with'), it will die to a light flight of hobs in probably under a minute or 2 at most.
4 something about loosing turrent dps and me not wanting to explain on the 15 page of this thread the ROF/DMG bonus relationship

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#247 - 2013-03-29 00:33:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Mord Raven
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
The RUS Hunter wrote:
Some really bitter Amarr in here, some really bitter minnie in here, over all you qq nerds need to chill out, these are the first pass changes, instead of raging, write your thoughts out and propose numbers.

No Flyingnerdragepockets either.

how about ill let you know when something is being changed with the tengu, until then nobody cares to read anything you have to say.

some dude wrote:


What is your point with multiple fittings? One can fit a vagabond as an armor buffed brawler or a myrmidon as a shield tanked kiter. One simply won’t because those fits are subpar to the intended roles of the ships, just as your idea on how to fit the navy omen is subpar to the intended role of the ship. You mention the navy omen as a giant slicer that will be pointed and popped in seconds, taking a quick look on how you fly your slicers concludes that you intend to fit the navy omen as a brawler, which it is not intended to be. The right fit combined with it's speed makes it really hard to catch if flown right, so I disagree with it being easy to catch and pop. That in combination with it's range bonus makes it a solid kiter. Or exactly how did you intend to fly the ship now again?


propose me a realistic fit for the nomen, cause i all i can think of for the mids is microwarp, long point, cap injector,
lets explain WHY.
1 13ms faster than stabber fleet(yes we are going to use its RIVAL ship) with loki linked ships (yes everything is loki linked, nobody flies without them, i dont care if you do) so yeah no real speed evasion, mass is nearly identical infact the nomen is heavier
2 no real means of capacitor regeneration so you can fire you guns for 30 seconds or use a cap injector, No one is going to kite at 18km with a pimp nos cuz hey guess why? well most cruiser t2 long range ammo can hit that far, 18km.
3 lets take it beyond the 20km, with no viable tank and devoting all lows to speed and turrent mods LIKE A NORMAL SLICER(but unable to really fit speed mods it will most likely be fitting reactor controls for 'big guns to kite with'), it will die to a light flight of hobs in probably under a minute or 2 at most.
4 something about loosing turrent dps and me not wanting to explain on the 15 page of this thread the ROF/DMG bonus relationship


[Omen Navy Issue, Odyssey]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Capacitor Booster II

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Rig Slot
Medium Rig Slot

1. It's inevitable that some ships is going to catch up to it. You want it to fly around the battlefield unharmed? Pick your fights.
2. Capacitor Booster.
3. You can have two sets of Warrior II flights yourself. Kill the drones that's attacking you?
4. Besides, lower rate of fire means less capacitor use.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#248 - 2013-03-29 00:42:52 UTC


some dude wrote:



[Omen Navy Issue, Odyssey]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
800mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Damage Control II

Warp Disruptor II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Small Capacitor Booster II

Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Heavy Pulse Laser II
Small Unstable Power Fluctuator I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Rig Slot
Medium Rig Slot

1. It's inevitable that some ships is going to catch up to it. You want it to fly around the battlefield unharmed? Pick your fights.
2. Capacitor Booster.
3. You can have two sets of Warrior II flights yourself. Kill the drones that's attacking you?
4. Besides, lower rate of fire means less capacitor use.



Ok so PREbuff omen is brought back in a bad way.


1 Thx for stating the obvious captain
2 Thx for stating the obvious captain
3 what ? who uses warrior IIs anymore? its all about the OP hornet ec 300
4 read back on the first 13 pages of this thread about cap use relationship with old nomen vs new nomen.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#249 - 2013-03-29 00:51:14 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:


Ok so PREbuff omen is brought back in a bad way.


1 Thx for stating the obvious captain
2 Thx for stating the obvious captain
3 what ? who uses warrior IIs anymore? its all about the OP hornet ec 300
4 read back on the first 13 pages of this thread about cap use relationship with old nomen vs new nomen.


Explain what you feel is bad. You know in an argument it is good to put forth your view right? And stating the obvious is never too obvious when it comes to certain people, know what I'm saying?

You can hold two flights of light drones, bring your ECM drones as well if you love them so much. Have you actually tried fitting the ship yourself or read about the changes to it?
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#250 - 2013-03-29 01:05:20 UTC
Mord Raven wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:


Ok so PREbuff omen is brought back in a bad way.


1 Thx for stating the obvious captain
2 Thx for stating the obvious captain
3 what ? who uses warrior IIs anymore? its all about the OP hornet ec 300
4 read back on the first 13 pages of this thread about cap use relationship with old nomen vs new nomen.


Explain what you feel is bad. You know in an argument it is good to put forth your view right? And stating the obvious is never too obvious when it comes to certain people, know what I'm saying?

Do you no what you are saying?
Mord Raven wrote:

You can hold two flights of light drones, bring your ECM drones as well if you love them so much. Have you actually tried fitting the ship yourself or read about the changes to it?

have you actually practiced flying ships outside of the world of preplanning?

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#251 - 2013-03-29 01:15:53 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:

have you actually practiced flying ships outside of the world of preplanning?


No I don't know exactly how the new omen will perform in the field and neither do you. I am just breaking down some of your arguments because I feel you are whining without a reason.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#252 - 2013-03-29 02:22:42 UTC
My only concern is the Fleet Stabber having a 10% bonus to tracking pr level.
This ship is a strict no fly zone for anything smaller than a cruiser. I like the game to have anti-frigate ships available but upto 50% better tracking with autocannons really makes it impossible to come close to with small ships and still capable of going up against bigger ships. I'd be way more comfortable with 7,5% instead - It is still a substantial tracking bonus and combined with less fall-off on Tracking Enhancers I believe they can perform very well in their role without slaughtering any type of frigate (Even AFs) almost before people get to yell "point" on comms...

Pinky
Heribeck Weathers
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#253 - 2013-03-29 02:47:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Heribeck Weathers
Pinky Denmark wrote:
My only concern is the Fleet Stabber having a 10% bonus to tracking pr level.
This ship is a strict no fly zone for anything smaller than a cruiser. I like the game to have anti-frigate ships available but upto 50% better tracking with autocannons really makes it impossible to come close to with small ships and still capable of going up against bigger ships. I'd be way more comfortable with 7,5% instead - It is still a substantial tracking bonus and combined with less fall-off on Tracking Enhancers I believe they can perform very well in their role without slaughtering any type of frigate (Even AFs) almost before people get to yell "point" on comms...

Pinky


Show me where the SFI touched you

Armor SFi has abismal range on its guns, and shield one has crap tank, it has big weaknesses you can take advantge of if you try.
Drunken Bum
#254 - 2013-03-29 03:31:33 UTC
No more split weapon systems please and thank you. That ship still wont get flown. Exequoruouruouruorururorrr still looks useless.

After the patch we're giving the market some gentle supply restriction, like tying one wrist to the bedpost loosely with soft silk rope. Just enough to make things a bit more exciting for the market, not enough to make a safeword necessary.  -Fozzie
Alek Row
Silent Step
#255 - 2013-03-29 03:32:01 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Just a side note here. ( ... )


I understand and I agree with it. I also understand that it's difficult to get it right the first time
It's great fun to have more choices, to see other ships that weren't used until now.

The fleet stabber is not really a stabber, it's more like a rupture, and ~10% of mass is a lot. It really needs it that much?
So are we supposed to run in straight line but unable to turn? (exaggeration I know)

Rifter, Punisher, Jaguar, you'll have a lot of problems convincing me that this balance is flawless.

CCP track record on balance is also not very good is it?
What really bothers me is that it took 10 years to make a full re-balance act.
There is a thread somewhere about a faction cruiser (phantasm?) that had been in the dust for the past 4 years, FOUR !!!
I think they are still waiting for the meta-game to settle on that one.

Just concerned with the time they will take to fix the new broken stuff, words are easily said than done.
(and 1 PG will not fix it )
Viribus
Aurora.
The Initiative.
#256 - 2013-03-29 05:34:56 UTC
Ahahahaha the Omen Navy will actually do less DPS than a regular Omen

I didn't think when Fozzie said it'd be a "big slicer" it would also have slicer damage and slicer tank

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Castellan Garran Crowe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#257 - 2013-03-29 06:16:55 UTC
I am worried about the Caracal Navy Issue, I plugged the changes into EvE HQ, and changing the Kinetic Damage Bonus to a Rate of Fire bonus dropped its DPS by about 120, now i don't know if it is a glitch with EvE HQ or that's whats actually going to happen if they implement this change, so I am not overly happy with that if that's the case il just stick to flying normal Caracal's as they will be way better as you can do the same DPS as this change from Point range.

Caracal: Ok it is obviously a Kitter with Heavies or HAM's because of the range bonus.
Caracal Navy Issue: Supposed to be more of a Brawler, so if its not doing more damage up close their is no point in having it as the Normal Caracal will kick its ass every time.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Caracal Navy Issue: Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius
Slot layout: 6 H, 5 M, 4 L, 0(-2) turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG(+35), 465(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000(+187) / 1950 / 2250(-35)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s (-600)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 482.5s(8.75) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+46) / 0.51(+0.09) / 9600000 / 6.79s(+1.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-15) / 0(-15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km / 270(+28) / 7
Sensor strength: 21(+3) Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125(-5)
Cargo capacity: 450(+200)


CCP Fozzie, you said as quoted above "Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting." so how is this thing going to perform well in Brawling with Terrible DPS, if its just and EvE HQ coding fault then tell me so I can quit worrying about this thing going to be weak.

Thank You Fozzie
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#258 - 2013-03-29 06:32:08 UTC
Alek Row wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Just a side note here. ( ... )


I understand and I agree with it. I also understand that it's difficult to get it right the first time
It's great fun to have more choices, to see other ships that weren't used until now.

The fleet stabber is not really a stabber, it's more like a rupture, and ~10% of mass is a lot. It really needs it that much?
So are we supposed to run in straight line but unable to turn? (exaggeration I know)

Rifter, Punisher, Jaguar, you'll have a lot of problems convincing me that this balance is flawless.

CCP track record on balance is also not very good is it?
What really bothers me is that it took 10 years to make a full re-balance act.
There is a thread somewhere about a faction cruiser (phantasm?) that had been in the dust for the past 4 years, FOUR !!!
I think they are still waiting for the meta-game to settle on that one.

Just concerned with the time they will take to fix the new broken stuff, words are easily said than done.
(and 1 PG will not fix it )

Good post, but actually their recent track record on balance has been excellent... we are already getting fine tuning and the first pass isn't complete yet.

One other point, half of the ships you mention haven't even been balanced yet... they will however be the next groups up to bat. One thing at a time.

I'll agree that the Rifter may need further tweaking (it's a bit of a problem child currently) however the Punisher fulfills it's role quite well despite what EFT jockey's would have you believe. Not every ship needs to be a 1v1 beast, and in small gangs Punishers beat the tar out of groups of supposedly better ships if flown and fitted correctly.... and if I need to hold a point on a larger ship while being hammered on by drones there are few other T1 frigates I'd rather be in.

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Jon Marburg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#259 - 2013-03-29 06:32:58 UTC
You really should split them up and balance some as combat and others as attack.

I really wish I could see how T2 will be balanced as well, because right now I can't understand the rational in a lot of these changes. Navy Omen and Zealot seem really similar now. Same with the Navy Vexor and Ishtar. And then no idea what was going on with the Fleet Stabber changes as they'er kind of all over the place.

I thought Navy was suppose to be an improvement on the primary role of the T1 hull, T2 was suppose to be a variation/specialization of the T1 role, and then Pirate was a further improvement on Navy along with special bonuses. With these changes Navy is just a midpoint to T2.

Navy Omen should be harder hitting, tougher, faster Omen. The quintessential brawling cruiser.
Zealot should get similar improvements as the Navy Omen, but make a sacrifices in one area (i.e. drones) in order to completely specialize in another (i.e. range). It should be the quintessential sniping cruiser.

Navy Vexor should be harder hitting, tougher, faster Vexor. The best possible drone/hybrid cruiser.
Ishtar should get similar improvements as the Navy Vexor, but make a sacrifices in one area (i.e. guns) in order to completely specialize in another (i.e. drones). It should be the quintessential drone cruiser.

Fleet Stabber should be harder hitting, tougher, faster Stabber. The best possible fast attack cruiser.
Vagabond should get similar improvements as the Fleet Stabber, but make a sacrifices in one area (i.e. tank) in order to completely specialize in another (i.e. kiting). It should be the quintessential kiting cruiser. (Personally, vagabond seems to fill the Navy role much better than the SFI after the Stabber changes)

I can go into detail in regards to specific changes later if you agree with my understanding of the T1, T2, Navy dynamic.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#260 - 2013-03-29 06:35:29 UTC
Castellan Garran Crowe wrote:
I am worried about the Caracal Navy Issue, I plugged the changes into EvE HQ, and changing the Kinetic Damage Bonus to a Rate of Fire bonus dropped its DPS by about 120, now i don't know if it is a glitch with EvE HQ or that's whats actually going to happen if they implement this change, so I am not overly happy with that if that's the case il just stick to flying normal Caracal's as they will be way better as you can do the same DPS as this change from Point range.

Caracal: Ok it is obviously a Kitter with Heavies or HAM's because of the range bonus.
Caracal Navy Issue: Supposed to be more of a Brawler, so if its not doing more damage up close their is no point in having it as the Normal Caracal will kick its ass every time.

CCP Fozzie wrote:
:Caracal Navy Issue: Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus Rapid Light, Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile Launcher rate of fire
5% bonus to Heavy Assault and Heavy Missile explosion radius
Slot layout: 6 H, 5 M, 4 L, 0(-2) turrets, 6 launchers
Fittings: 715 PWG(+35), 465(+50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3000(+187) / 1950 / 2250(-35)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s (-600)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1450(+75) / 482.5s(8.75) / 3(+0.2)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 210(+46) / 0.51(+0.09) / 9600000 / 6.79s(+1.2)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0(-15) / 0(-15)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km / 270(+28) / 7
Sensor strength: 21(+3) Gravimetric
Signature radius: 125(-5)
Cargo capacity: 450(+200)


CCP Fozzie, you said as quoted above "Finds a niche as the heavier version of the Caracal, more suited to brawling than kiting." so how is this thing going to perform well in Brawling with Terrible DPS, if its just and EvE HQ coding fault then tell me so I can quit worrying about this thing going to be weak.

Thank You Fozzie

A ROF bonus ends up with considerably more damage than a straight damage bonus.

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