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Industrials

Author
Desekration
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1 - 2013-03-27 21:21:31 UTC
At some point in the near future, I will be training either Amarr or Caldari industrial V.

Would someone be kind enough to summarize the pros and cons of each of those two races' T2 industrials and freighters for me?
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-03-27 21:26:26 UTC
Desekration wrote:
At some point in the near future, I will be training either Amarr or Caldari industrial V.

Would someone be kind enough to summarize the pros and cons of each of those two races' T2 industrials and freighters for me?


Caldari freighter has the largest capacity.

Amar freighter looks good.
UkaIS
Dammalin Industries Incorporated
#3 - 2013-03-27 21:33:51 UTC
AFAIK the Caldari freighter has the largest cargo hold Weile being the slowest, thus being the best for People flying on autopilot. The Minmatar One is the opposite and the others are something in between making it better for people flying manually. After all its more of a questions of style though :-)
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-03-27 21:34:46 UTC
Right now is kind of a bad time to pick a industrial. They're going to go through tiericide soon-ish so we're not sure what they're going to be like 3 months from now. Freighters are all pretty similar, but I think the amarr is ever so slightly tankier than the caldari one.

For the most part though pick the ones that look the best to you.

If you're really worried about performance differences and you're going for transport ships caldari are probably better. They can fit full capacity while getting a decent sized shield buffer tank. If you just want a brick of a ship the amarr transport ship can get beefy ehp, but fitting anything cargo related kind of ruins the tank quickly. So it really depends on what you're looking for, but we really can't answer very well because we don't know what's going to happen in a few months.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-03-27 21:51:49 UTC
UkaIS wrote:
AFAIK the Caldari freighter has the largest cargo hold Weile being the slowest, thus being the best for People flying on autopilot. The Minmatar One is the opposite and the others are something in between making it better for people flying manually. After all its more of a questions of style though :-)


Seems like this is backwards
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#6 - 2013-03-27 22:38:32 UTC
This came up recently here.
Alexa Coates
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-03-27 22:44:35 UTC
if you go caldari you earn the honor of flying something called the bustard

just let that sink in.

That's a Templar, an Amarr fighter used by carriers.

Thur Barbek
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-03-28 05:38:53 UTC
Alexa Coates wrote:
if you go caldari you earn the honor of flying something called the bustard

just let that sink in.


If you fly any of the "Deep space transports" you already fail. The only good t2 haulers are the blockade runners.
Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#9 - 2013-03-28 12:00:51 UTC
Why not gallente? Iteron V is far supperior to other T1 industrials. T2 industrials, freighters and JFS seems quite the same because most of the time your cargohold wont be full. If you fill your cargohold by too expensive things you drastically increase risk of gank.
Ryelek d'Entari
Horizon Glare
#10 - 2013-03-28 18:44:39 UTC
Minmatar blockade runner is the only one with 2 high slots, can fit a cloak and prober for WH duty.

Freighter differences are pretty minor, differences amount to about 25% variation in speed, 14% variation in align time, and 8% variation in cargo capacity. However, if you want to ship for big contract corps like red frog, check their cargo capacity requirements to avoid having to do things like train (racial) freighter 5.

As mentioned before, the industrial ships are going to be tiericided, so choosing the based on today's conditions is probably going to backfire this summer.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#11 - 2013-03-28 19:40:18 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
if you go caldari you earn the honor of flying something called the bustard

just let that sink in.


If you fly any of the "Deep space transports" you already fail. The only good t2 haulers are the blockade runners.

Hmm, when auto piloting through high sec would you use the 9.4km3 blockade runner with 7.7k EHP, or the 30.6km3 transport with 43k ehp

I dunno, it almost looks like they're different ships meant for different jobs or something.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38

Dave stark
#12 - 2013-03-28 20:26:27 UTC
between caldari and amarr freighters, the caldari freighter has the most space, the amarr DST has the most space, and both blockade runners are meh since the prowler beats them both due to it's high slots.

that being said, you may as well ignore everything that isn't the freighters due to the impending industrial rebalance. hence, you should go with caldari because of the charon's massive cargo space.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#13 - 2013-03-28 21:18:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
between caldari and amarr freighters, the caldari freighter has the most space, the amarr DST has the most space, and both blockade runners are meh since the prowler beats them both due to it's high slots.

that being said, you may as well ignore everything that isn't the freighters due to the impending industrial rebalance. hence, you should go with caldari because of the charon's massive cargo space.


This is pretty questionable advice. First, the Prowler's only advantage is the second high slot. This makes it good in wormholes since it can fit a probe launcher. Outside of that, it falls behind because it isn't able to carry a packaged cruiser (10k m^3). Both the Prorator and the Viator can do this without T2 rigs, and the Crane can do it with T2 rigs.

Second, the industrial rebalance is pending but is still an unknown. It will only really change the equation for T1 industrials for the time being anyhow, and the choice of which to take to 5 will still have major implications for which transports open up. The skill changes will mean that you don't need racial indy 5 for a freighter (but you will need ASC 5 if you don't inject the book prior to the changes) but you'll still need racial indy 5 for transports -- and the choice of blockade runners becomes rather important.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-03-28 21:25:13 UTC
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:
Freighter differences are pretty minor, differences amount to about 25% variation in speed, 14% variation in align time, and 8% variation in cargo capacity. However, if you want to ship for big contract corps like red frog, check their cargo capacity requirements to avoid having to do things like train (racial) freighter 5.


Your point stands, but I thought red frog had a cap on cargo size that was no greater than the smallest freighter (Minmatar) at freighter 4 specifically to address this problem. I could be wrong, I looked at red frog months ago.

And I don't know how anyone can call the DST ships bad. I mean they have a 5% active tank bonus, when every other active tank bonus is 7.5%. They also have 50% more mass and only warp at 3au/s. The shield tanked ones aren't too terrible if you want to have ~50k ehp with max cargo capacity, but the armor ones are horrible with the discord between armor tanking, astronomic rigs, and cargo expander modules. Unless flying a 100m paper tank DST full of stuff is your idea of a good, well thought out plan.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#15 - 2013-03-28 21:58:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodama Ikari
Ersahi Kir wrote:

And I don't know how anyone can call the DST ships bad. I mean they have a 5% active tank bonus, when every other active tank bonus is 7.5%. They also have 50% more mass and only warp at 3au/s. The shield tanked ones aren't too terrible if you want to have ~50k ehp with max cargo capacity, but the armor ones are horrible with the discord between armor tanking, astronomic rigs, and cargo expander modules. Unless flying a 100m paper tank DST full of stuff is your idea of a good, well thought out plan.


Are you like a professional at giving bad advice? You keep referencing "max cargo capacity" as if this is somehow the same across all the ships, with caldari getting a bigger tank as a bonus. You're also talking about the active tank bonus. The fact that you're talking about the active tank bonus at all indicates that you're clueless. DSTs are bad because they're just not very useful. There are a few situations where a DST is ideal, and outside of that you would never want to use one. Blockade runners are for the other 99% of the time. The point is do not pick your indy race based on DST at all. Asking which race has the best transport ships is equivalent to asking which race has the best blockade runners.

The Caldari blockade runner (Crane) is unquestionably the worst one. The Amarrian blockade runner (Prorator) is unquestionably the best one for everything outside of WH space.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-03-28 22:28:32 UTC
Kodama Ikari wrote:
Ersahi Kir wrote:

And I don't know how anyone can call the DST ships bad. I mean they have a 5% active tank bonus, when every other active tank bonus is 7.5%. They also have 50% more mass and only warp at 3au/s. The shield tanked ones aren't too terrible if you want to have ~50k ehp with max cargo capacity, but the armor ones are horrible with the discord between armor tanking, astronomic rigs, and cargo expander modules. Unless flying a 100m paper tank DST full of stuff is your idea of a good, well thought out plan.


Are you like a professional at giving bad advice? You keep referencing "max cargo capacity" as if this is somehow the same across all the ships, with caldari getting a bigger tank as a bonus. You're also talking about the active tank bonus. The fact that you're talking about the active tank bonus at all indicates that you're clueless. DSTs are bad because they're just not very useful. There are a few situations where a DST is ideal, and outside of that you would never want to use one. Blockade runners are for the other 99% of the time. The point is do not pick your indy race based on DST at all. Asking which race has the best transport ships is equivalent to asking which race has the best blockade runners.

The Caldari blockade runner (Crane) is unquestionably the worst one. The Amarrian blockade runner (Prorator) is unquestionably the best one for everything outside of WH space.


I think you missed a little bit of the sarcasm I put into this post. I'll be a little more straight forward, since sarcasm is sometimes hard to pick up on the internet.

DST's having an active shield tanking bonus is bad design, especially when their other bonus is buffer tank. They're slow to align compared to the tech I because they have so much mass, and they also warp at 3 au/s compared to the 4.5 the tech I's do. Why they decided this was balanced is beyond me.

Out of the 4 DST's the minmatar and caldari ones are better though. The minmatar one can sport ~50k EHP with a ~31.5k m3 cargo hold, while the caldari one is ~48k EHP with ~33k or 35k m3 cargo hold. The amarr and galente DST's are very bad though, because the discord between armor tanks, cargo expander rigs, and cargo expander modules not meshing well together. You can either end up with a giant cargohold and paper tank, or you can end up with a pretty good tank but a 5k cargohold. All of the fits between these two extremes heavily conflict with bonuses and drawbacks to create a ship that performs poorly compared to the caldari and minmatar boats.

I apologize for any confusion my previous post caused.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#17 - 2013-03-29 04:55:06 UTC
Ryelek d'Entari wrote:
Freighter differences are pretty minor, differences amount to about 25% variation in speed, 14% variation in align time, and 8% variation in cargo capacity. However, if you want to ship for big contract corps like red frog, check their cargo capacity requirements to avoid having to do things like train (racial) freighter 5.


Push only require their pilots to have a cargo capacity of 860k m3, which is easily achievable (skill 3 for most Freighters, but IIRC only 2 for Caldari Freighter). Presumably, Red Frog has a similarly easy requirement.
Dave stark
#18 - 2013-03-29 08:28:17 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
between caldari and amarr freighters, the caldari freighter has the most space, the amarr DST has the most space, and both blockade runners are meh since the prowler beats them both due to it's high slots.

that being said, you may as well ignore everything that isn't the freighters due to the impending industrial rebalance. hence, you should go with caldari because of the charon's massive cargo space.


This is pretty questionable advice. First, the Prowler's only advantage is the second high slot. This makes it good in wormholes since it can fit a probe launcher. Outside of that, it falls behind because it isn't able to carry a packaged cruiser (10k m^3). Both the Prorator and the Viator can do this without T2 rigs, and the Crane can do it with T2 rigs.

Second, the industrial rebalance is pending but is still an unknown. It will only really change the equation for T1 industrials for the time being anyhow, and the choice of which to take to 5 will still have major implications for which transports open up. The skill changes will mean that you don't need racial indy 5 for a freighter (but you will need ASC 5 if you don't inject the book prior to the changes) but you'll still need racial indy 5 for transports -- and the choice of blockade runners becomes rather important.


i accept your point; but due to the fact that the industrials are all coming up for rebalancing soon means most of this may or may not be true 3-4 months from now.

granted, freighters may be the same, but it will take longer to get around to changing those so there's a longer period of certainty attached to them.

also with the addition of blockade runners being able to light covert cynos, the prowler is the only one that can do it, and still fit a cloak. which, in my opinion makes it more valuable than being able to carry a packaged cruiser.

then again, due to the skill changes and industrial 3 + ASC V being the requirements for freighters, there's no real reason not to train to fly all the freighters, which will also give you access to all the t1 industrials. at that point i'd say go minmatar, because i still think the prowler is awesome. however the OP is trying to pick between amarr and caldari, at which point i don't think it really matters, i find their blockade runner and DST's are both middle of the road with the only notable exception being the impel having the most cargo of the DSTs.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#19 - 2013-03-29 08:34:45 UTC
UkaIS wrote:
AFAIK the Caldari freighter has the largest cargo hold Weile being the slowest, thus being the best for People flying on autopilot. The Minmatar One is the opposite and the others are something in between making it better for people flying manually. After all its more of a questions of style though :-)


This may be of use.
Connery Domino
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-03-29 12:54:10 UTC
Just pick the one you want to use based on style. The differences between them really are negligible in the end.
Pick the Providence, it looks pretty nice imo.
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