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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#221 - 2013-03-28 18:23:16 UTC
Durrr wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
omen navy getting less turret damage than it already HAS. and less hitpoints than its RIVAL THE STABBER FLEET in every category. and the stabber fleet is untouched? seruiosly

UNACCEPTABLE. this makes no sense that the top of the line amarr navy cruiser has LESS ARMOR THAN ITS RIVAL.

wth the stabber fleet has more sensor strength a omen navy. ?!!?!?!?!!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?


While I believe the new NOmen will be fine, I do agree that the Matari are historically dead last on sensor strength, and should remain so.



In fact CCP inverted Omen and Stabber in this iteration it seems

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Huttan Funaila
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#222 - 2013-03-28 18:27:21 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Vexor Navy Issue:
[snip]
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
[snip]

The VNI was the only faction ship that kept the mining bonus from the T1 cruisers (neither the ONI nor SFI had the bonus carried over from the base ship). The mining bonus for Vexors, Scythes and Ospreys were removed in the past. Is there any reason to keep it for the VNI? Other than perhaps a trivia question several years down the road (like the Guardian-Vexor)?
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#223 - 2013-03-28 18:33:23 UTC
Durrr wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
omen navy getting less turret damage than it already HAS. and less hitpoints than its RIVAL THE STABBER FLEET in every category. and the stabber fleet is untouched? seruiosly

UNACCEPTABLE. this makes no sense that the top of the line amarr navy cruiser has LESS ARMOR THAN ITS RIVAL.

wth the stabber fleet has more sensor strength a omen navy. ?!!?!?!?!!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?


While I believe the new NOmen will be fine, I do agree that the Matari are historically dead last on sensor strength, and should remain so.


what part about the nomen do you think will be fine? the part where it gets webed from loki linked bitches? or the part where it caps its self out? maybe its the part where the nomen is able to use 1 less ancillary current router than it currently uses.

or the classic amarr argument, web or scram cause the nos will be completely insufficient to keep all those 4 guns running so you HAVE to use cap booster.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#224 - 2013-03-28 18:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Mord Raven
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Durrr wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
omen navy getting less turret damage than it already HAS. and less hitpoints than its RIVAL THE STABBER FLEET in every category. and the stabber fleet is untouched? seruiosly

UNACCEPTABLE. this makes no sense that the top of the line amarr navy cruiser has LESS ARMOR THAN ITS RIVAL.

wth the stabber fleet has more sensor strength a omen navy. ?!!?!?!?!!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?


While I believe the new NOmen will be fine, I do agree that the Matari are historically dead last on sensor strength, and should remain so.


what part about the nomen do you think will be fine? the part where it gets webed from loki linked bitches? or the part where it caps its self out? maybe its the part where the nomen is able to use 1 less ancillary current router than it currently uses.

or the classic amarr argument, web or scram cause the nos will be completely insufficient to keep all those 4 guns running so you HAVE to use cap booster.


Fit a cap booster in the third mid?

The Navy Omen looks great.
Sakkar Arenith
Kenmei Corporation
#225 - 2013-03-28 18:38:19 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Durrr wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
omen navy getting less turret damage than it already HAS. and less hitpoints than its RIVAL THE STABBER FLEET in every category. and the stabber fleet is untouched? seruiosly

UNACCEPTABLE. this makes no sense that the top of the line amarr navy cruiser has LESS ARMOR THAN ITS RIVAL.

wth the stabber fleet has more sensor strength a omen navy. ?!!?!?!?!!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?


While I believe the new NOmen will be fine, I do agree that the Matari are historically dead last on sensor strength, and should remain so.


what part about the nomen do you think will be fine? the part where it gets webed from loki linked bitches? or the part where it caps its self out? maybe its the part where the nomen is able to use 1 less ancillary current router than it currently uses.

or the classic amarr argument, web or scram cause the nos will be completely insufficient to keep all those 4 guns running so you HAVE to use cap booster.


Well obviously youre forgetting that 350 EM dps are totally op vs the poor rusty SFI or vexors.

I mean its not like they could match that dps, while being faster, cap stable, have 40% more ehp.

Totally balanced...
The RUS Hunter
Mr. Clean Corp..
#226 - 2013-03-28 18:49:06 UTC
Some really bitter Amarr in here, some really bitter minnie in here, over all you qq nerds need to chill out, these are the first pass changes, instead of raging, write your thoughts out and propose numbers.

No Flyingnerdragepockets either.
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#227 - 2013-03-28 18:53:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Mord Raven
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Durrr wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
omen navy getting less turret damage than it already HAS. and less hitpoints than its RIVAL THE STABBER FLEET in every category. and the stabber fleet is untouched? seruiosly

UNACCEPTABLE. this makes no sense that the top of the line amarr navy cruiser has LESS ARMOR THAN ITS RIVAL.

wth the stabber fleet has more sensor strength a omen navy. ?!!?!?!?!!?!?!!!!?!?!?!?!??!!?


While I believe the new NOmen will be fine, I do agree that the Matari are historically dead last on sensor strength, and should remain so.


what part about the nomen do you think will be fine? the part where it gets webed from loki linked bitches? or the part where it caps its self out? maybe its the part where the nomen is able to use 1 less ancillary current router than it currently uses.

or the classic amarr argument, web or scram cause the nos will be completely insufficient to keep all those 4 guns running so you HAVE to use cap booster.


Well obviously youre forgetting that 350 EM dps are totally op vs the poor rusty SFI or vexors.

I mean its not like they could match that dps, while being faster, cap stable, have 40% more ehp.

Totally balanced...


Once again, judging by how you fit and fly your brawling slicers, if you fit the navy omen by the same philosophy I understand that you think it is crap in comparison to the other navy cruisers. You are not taking advantage of the ships strengths. The new omen is a kiting ship. Try it out with your slicer sometime.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#228 - 2013-03-28 18:56:03 UTC
I'm calling it now.

Before release the scythe fleet issue will be changed.

7.5% medium turret fire rate per level OR 10% medium turret damage per level
10% explosive missile damage per level, possibly adding 5% for the other damage types

There's no way 8 effective turrets on the scythe FI is going live.
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#229 - 2013-03-28 19:05:32 UTC
To mare wrote:
the 10% to projectile rof on the scythe seems too good to be true and make the missile bonus totally useless especially with 4/4 turret/launcher and 5 highs, the Nomen change of role from DPS machine to kite ships its strange, since when that its amarr gamestyle?

and to all the ppl complaining about this new cruisers vs T2 ships keep in mind T2 still have to be rebalancesd


The idea might be close range projectiles (think cynabal) or kitey missiles. Missiles typically shouldn't have the same damage potential as they hit far easier.
Sakkar Arenith
Kenmei Corporation
#230 - 2013-03-28 19:10:58 UTC
Quote:


Once again, judging by how you fit and fly your brawling slicers, if you fit the navy omen by the same philosophy I understand that you think it is crap in comparison to the other navy cruisers. You are not taking advantage of the ships strengths. The new omen is a kiting ship. Try it out with your slicer sometime.


/sigh

not sure if being trolled or just stupid...


You do realize that one can have multiple fittings, right, i know its awild concept to someone flying the same 2x TD kiting slasher 23/7, but i assure you, its possible.

The proposed nomen simply doesnt work as it is intended to, its basically a ****** zealot with less cap and two less low slots, and going by the fact that booster alts are ubiquitous nowadays, AND by general fail stats compared to other cruisers in that very lineup (SFI), it simply cant.

The kiting idea would be neat if applied to a panicking shield tanking ******, but if matched by even a somewhat decent pilot the nomen will burn 10/10 times because nothing it has cant be easily hard countered by coockie cutter SFI/vexor fits.
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#231 - 2013-03-28 19:19:14 UTC
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:


Edit goldsaver where do you find this 50%rate of fire also 4+ 50% (which is 2) would be 6, not 8. While other ships have 10% and 10% something else.


For the mathematically challenged, a 50% ROF bonus = double damage. Think about it, if you are shooting every 4 seconds, as opposed to every 8 seconds (4 seconds is 50% or .5 of the original 8 seconds) you are doing double the damage. This is why, from a DPS perspective, an X% ROF bonus is always better than an X% DMG bonus.
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#232 - 2013-03-28 19:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Ersahi Kir
Durrr wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:


Edit goldsaver where do you find this 50%rate of fire also 4+ 50% (which is 2) would be 6, not 8. While other ships have 10% and 10% something else.


For the mathematically challenged, a 50% ROF bonus = double damage. Think about it, if you are shooting every 4 seconds, as opposed to every 8 seconds (4 seconds is 50% or .5 of the original 8 seconds) you are doing double the damage. This is why, from a DPS perspective, an X% ROF bonus is always better than an X% DMG bonus.


For the mathematically challenged:

5% bonus to RoF per level = 25% @ level 5 = 33.3% damage bonus
7.5% bonus to RoF per level = 37.5% @ level 5 = 60% damage bonus
10% bonus to RoF per level = 50% @ level 5 = 100% damage bonus
20% bonus to RoF per level = 100% @ level 5 = infinity damage...before reloading time or capacitor drain is factored in

If the scythe fleet issue does go live I can't wait for the scythe + scythe FI blobs raping everything. They may even let a scim or two in.

Frigate destruction with rapid lights, cruiser+ destruction with missiles or guns, plus remote reps everywhere. The carnage will be glorious.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2013-03-28 19:30:00 UTC
Durrr wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:


Edit goldsaver where do you find this 50%rate of fire also 4+ 50% (which is 2) would be 6, not 8. While other ships have 10% and 10% something else.


For the mathematically challenged, a 50% ROF bonus = double damage. Think about it, if you are shooting every 4 seconds, as opposed to every 8 seconds (4 seconds is 50% or .5 of the original 8 seconds) you are doing double the damage. This is why, from a DPS perspective, an X% ROF bonus is always better than an X% DMG bonus.



its easier when you explain taht 50% rof bonus does not mean the ROF is increased 50%. But that the time between shots is reduced in 50%. The nomenclature that CCP use is not precise and cause confusion a lot.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jacid
Corvix.
Greater Domain Cooperative
#234 - 2013-03-28 19:35:18 UTC
Ersahi Kir wrote:
Durrr wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:


Edit goldsaver where do you find this 50%rate of fire also 4+ 50% (which is 2) would be 6, not 8. While other ships have 10% and 10% something else.


For the mathematically challenged, a 50% ROF bonus = double damage. Think about it, if you are shooting every 4 seconds, as opposed to every 8 seconds (4 seconds is 50% or .5 of the original 8 seconds) you are doing double the damage. This is why, from a DPS perspective, an X% ROF bonus is always better than an X% DMG bonus.


For the mathematically challenged:

5% bonus to RoF per level = 25% @ level 5 = 33.3% damage bonus
7.5% bonus to RoF per level = 37.5% @ level 5 = 60% damage bonus
10% bonus to RoF per level = 50% @ level 5 = 100% damage bonus
20% bonus to RoF per level = 100% @ level 5 = infinity damage...before reloading time or capacitor drain is factored in

If the scythe fleet issue does go live I can't wait for the scythe + scythe FI blobs raping everything. They may even let a scim or two in.

Frigate destruction with rapid lights, cruiser+ destruction with missiles or guns, plus remote reps everywhere. The carnage will be glorious.


Agreed thats why i'm thankful for all these Scythe haters keeping Scythe prices down
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#235 - 2013-03-28 19:59:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mord Raven
Sakkar Arenith wrote:
Quote:


Once again, judging by how you fit and fly your brawling slicers, if you fit the navy omen by the same philosophy I understand that you think it is crap in comparison to the other navy cruisers. You are not taking advantage of the ships strengths. The new omen is a kiting ship. Try it out with your slicer sometime.


/sigh

not sure if being trolled or just stupid...


You do realize that one can have multiple fittings, right, i know its awild concept to someone flying the same 2x TD kiting slasher 23/7, but i assure you, its possible.

The proposed nomen simply doesnt work as it is intended to, its basically a ****** zealot with less cap and two less low slots, and going by the fact that booster alts are ubiquitous nowadays, AND by general fail stats compared to other cruisers in that very lineup (SFI), it simply cant.

The kiting idea would be neat if applied to a panicking shield tanking ******, but if matched by even a somewhat decent pilot the nomen will burn 10/10 times because nothing it has cant be easily hard countered by coockie cutter SFI/vexor fits.



What is your point with multiple fittings? One can fit a vagabond as an armor buffed brawler or a myrmidon as a shield tanked kiter. One simply won’t because those fits are subpar to the intended roles of the ships, just as your idea on how to fit the navy omen is subpar to the intended role of the ship. You mention the navy omen as a giant slicer that will be pointed and popped in seconds, taking a quick look on how you fly your slicers concludes that you intend to fit the navy omen as a brawler, which it is not intended to be. The right fit combined with it's speed makes it really hard to catch if flown right, so I disagree with it being easy to catch and pop. That in combination with it's range bonus makes it a solid kiter. Or exactly how did you intend to fly the ship now again?
Mord Raven
Phrike Squadron
#236 - 2013-03-28 20:06:00 UTC
DP
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#237 - 2013-03-28 20:08:09 UTC
Sakkar Arenith wrote:

And do we as amarr really need YET ANOTHER scorch platform? How about giving it a 20% per level tracking bonus to beams instead. That way there would be at least one ship that would ever want to fit beams over scorch for a change.

'Man's got a point...


These ships aside, it would be nice to see some cruiser sized platforms where there is a reason to chose the long ranged turret weapons. Arty are about the only thing I ever see as they have alpha, can't recall the last time I saw anyone use Medium beams or rails for anything other than low level mission running.
Durrr
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#238 - 2013-03-28 20:39:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Durrr wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:


Edit goldsaver where do you find this 50%rate of fire also 4+ 50% (which is 2) would be 6, not 8. While other ships have 10% and 10% something else.


For the mathematically challenged, a 50% ROF bonus = double damage. Think about it, if you are shooting every 4 seconds, as opposed to every 8 seconds (4 seconds is 50% or .5 of the original 8 seconds) you are doing double the damage. This is why, from a DPS perspective, an X% ROF bonus is always better than an X% DMG bonus.



its easier when you explain taht 50% rof bonus does not mean the ROF is increased 50%. But that the time between shots is reduced in 50%. The nomenclature that CCP use is not precise and cause confusion a lot.


Good point
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#239 - 2013-03-28 21:11:01 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
kraiklyn Asatru wrote:
Aah i get it thanks. Guess that makes it more viable than I thought, so I guess the idea it to make a gank and run like hell ship. I can support that.

Yeah, I'm interested to see how it turns out. I think it'll be good, and pretty fun to fly. I like the gankboat idea.


Liang Nuren wrote:
Damage bonuses multiply hardpoints by (1+dmg_bonus). Rate of fire bonuses divide by (1-dmg_bonus).

-Liang

Thanks. You described it better than I did. I was stumbling over the words to describe how ROF bonuses work.

You were very patient and did a good job. A lot of people just don't think the whole ROF advantage through very well (not dissing, I used to do the same thing).

I'm rather looking forward to using an extreme Smilearty fit for POP and run duty.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#240 - 2013-03-28 21:23:43 UTC
Mr Floydy wrote:
Sakkar Arenith wrote:

And do we as amarr really need YET ANOTHER scorch platform? How about giving it a 20% per level tracking bonus to beams instead. That way there would be at least one ship that would ever want to fit beams over scorch for a change.

'Man's got a point...


These ships aside, it would be nice to see some cruiser sized platforms where there is a reason to chose the long ranged turret weapons. Arty are about the only thing I ever see as they have alpha, can't recall the last time I saw anyone use Medium beams or rails for anything other than low level mission running.

I know what you mean, but that problem is probably best resolved by fixing the long range weapon system rather than tweaking individual ships.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.