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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#81 - 2013-03-28 14:55:13 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:


Single T1 cruiser 200 km off a Naga gang? Yes, run like hell. Straight

Seriously, you appear to be arguing that a Naga shouldn't be able to hit a cruiser as it approaches from 200 km. Actually it probably can't if you'd bothered to bring the right tool for the job - TDs or RSDs.



Please list cruisers that can lock to 200km that commonly appear in roaming gangs.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#82 - 2013-03-28 14:55:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Gypsio III
Michael Harari wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:


Seriously, you appear to be arguing that a Naga shouldn't be able to hit a cruiser as it approaches from 200 km. Actually it probably can't if you'd bothered to bring the right tool for the job - TDs or RSDs.


A caracal cant damp or TD a naga from 100km


Try fitting a sensor booster. Gives ~50% chance of a TD hit, or ~78% of a RSD hit, at 110 km.

Your problem is that you're expecting to be able to survive unharmed at sniper range against snipers. The whole idea is just silly.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#83 - 2013-03-28 14:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Gypsio III wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:


Seriously, you appear to be arguing that a Naga shouldn't be able to hit a cruiser as it approaches from 200 km. Actually it probably can't if you'd bothered to bring the right tool for the job - TDs or RSDs.


A caracal cant damp or TD a naga from 100km


Try fitting a sensor booster. Gives ~50% chance of a TD hit, or ~78% of a RSD hit, at 110 km.


So now you reduce your tank by 30% to reduce incoming dps by like 30% from a single ship.

Gud idea.


Also, if you read my post above, the caracal still takes 400 dps from the naga assuming the TD hits. Except now you have 1 less LSE and no web
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2013-03-28 15:17:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelob
Grath Telkin wrote:
@CCP Rise, I'm curious to see if you feel there is any need to bring the power levels on these down at all to make the other BC's more ....whats the word i'm looking for? Used?

Used doesn't feel right but its kind of in the spirit of what I'm looking for, as right now theres no real reason to use any other BC over the Talos except for not being trained enough to use its guns.


Well the talos or the oracle depending on the range you're looking for, but yeah.....

I see no reason to ever fly a hurricane, harbinger, myrm etc. except perhaps for old times sake or because its fun to armor tank. In terms of usability, especially in small-mid sized gangs, any bc tht isn't a t3 bc seems like a waste.
Alara IonStorm
#85 - 2013-03-28 15:19:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Darth Felin wrote:
I am completely unimpressed to be honest. This change will hurt close range fits of Tier3 BCs that overwhelmed other BC in this role and it is good. But it will have almost non-existent impact on most popular sniper formats where they completely removed BS from roaming gangs and midscale PVP. It is just not right when Tier 3 BC will have larger Range and DPS than corresponding BS,

Some of that can be sorted out on the other end.

Battleship with a Scripted Sebo has about 50% the lock time of a non Sebo Attack BC. Their 100mn MWD suck so much capacitor that a Heavy Cap Booster is needed just to get around the run time of an Attack BC with a 10mn. Then their is the Battleships themselves like the Minmatar Active Tanked Ship being the best Arty Platform, fitting Tach's on the Apoc is much harder then the Oracle, Ect.

They could do a lot to help LR Battleships by making some designed for it or looking at the fittings and slot layouts. Perhaps using Tieracide to bring the cost of the popular Tier 3's down to Tier 2 cost and the Tier 1/2 up to Tier 3 stats in their roles. I would wait for Battleship Balance before judging their usefulness. Scan Res, the MWD, LR Gun Fitting and increased Target Range are four area's if touched could make a serious impact.

For smaller ships Medium LR Weapons and HAC's are going to be put under the microscope as well.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2013-03-28 15:20:02 UTC
Incidentally Grath if this is the vaunted change to t3 bc's I think it's safe to say that SMUGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

TE change was ******* useless and just pushes everyone even harder into t3 bc's. Oh man this feels good to be right. umf umf umf
Akturous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2013-03-28 15:20:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Well currently, if you can use large guns, there is no reason to fly a brutix over say a talos. Honestly theres no reason to fly a Vaga over a Talos the ship is (in its current form) so incredibly broken with its extreme agility and dps projection.


I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree here. In my experience you have several metrics that are all really important to what a ship is good at, and all the ships you mention have completely different allocation of those metrics. Combat BC EHP makes them a lot more ideal as tacklers/bait ships than attack BCs. So having a drake alongside your talos to hold points without getting killed is very valuable. HACs like the vaga generally are much more capable of dealing with small support. So having vaga (or deimos or zealot or even rupture) to support an attack BC by protecting it from tacklers is very valuable. Attack BC have the highest damage/projection so they are generally going to have a lot of value based on that.

The prevalence of each role shifts based on a lot of things, but I don't see a direct tension between them. You don't get read for a roam and say - which ship has the most damage, lets take only those. At least thats been my experience.


Vaga and Talos both get 5 warriors, which is your only frig defence if you get caught, since a Vagas guns won't hit anyway. Neut doesn't matter if you have a nos on the frig.

Talos just does outclass every BC in a gang situation full stop. You bring recons for tackler projection, not a ****** low dps ship.

Vote Item Heck One for CSM8
Buhhdust Princess
Mind Games.
Suddenly Spaceships.
#88 - 2013-03-28 15:25:41 UTC
I am completely in love with this change.

Gj Rise.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#89 - 2013-03-28 15:26:33 UTC
Akturous wrote:

Talos just does outclass every BC in a gang situation full stop.



This is the reason for all those talos doctrines you see. Roll
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#90 - 2013-03-28 15:30:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
So CCP Rise slowed down 2 battlecruisers and made them take longer to turn Roll

How much does CCP pay you?


I was really worried that CCP might NERF attack battlecruisers alot more. I guess we don't have much to worry about with CCP Rise on the jobCool


- killz

EdAWT: Naga is z BEST. I would say armor Oracles would be about the same. Atleast in fleets. Otherwise, for solo I would say Talos and Oracle.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ！[/u]
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#91 - 2013-03-28 15:31:11 UTC
I am thinking about talos and drones. Drones gives big advantage to talos over the other abcs. However you do not want to turn them all into same boat so you could also think about turning talos into sentry drone specialized boat. I know myrmiddon is drone boat but it does not get full 125 drone bandwidth to control 5 sentries. This could be given to talos. I realize this is a huge change but probably possible since it would solve the issue for talos being too mobile yet giving it bs grade dps.

Anyway think about it.
Dysphonia Fera
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-03-28 15:34:07 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Akturous wrote:

Talos just does outclass every BC in a gang situation full stop.



This is the reason for all those talos doctrines you see. Roll


I'm sorry, are you being intentionally obtuse?

Taloses have no place in fleet doctrines, however, for small gang and solo, they are #1.
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#93 - 2013-03-28 15:38:29 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
So CCP Rise slowed down 2 battlecruisers and made them take longer to turn Roll

How much does CCP pay you?


I was really worried that CCP might NERF attack battlecruisers alot more. I guess we don't have much to worry about with CCP Rise on the jobCool


- killz

EdAWT: Naga is z BEST. I would say armor Oracles would be about the same. Atleast in fleets. Otherwise, for solo I would say Talos and Oracle.

You would just endup making them small bses. If mwd speed is the issue make it so that they cannot use mwd maybe +200% to mwd cap consumption and be done with it.
Suyer
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#94 - 2013-03-28 15:54:37 UTC
Cool. No reason to fly BC's anymore.

I too like flying un-agile garbage ships because I too like to get scrammed and then piled on by lamer pubbies who can't even consider flying without support.

Frigs it is.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#95 - 2013-03-28 15:58:05 UTC
Suyer wrote:
Cool. No reason to fly BC's anymore.

I too like flying un-agile garbage ships because I too like to get scrammed and then piled on by lamer pubbies who can't even consider flying without support.

Frigs it is.



What? You realize that he BARELY changed their agility? Talk of over reaction.


What we need is a WAY WAY more severe nerf.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#96 - 2013-03-28 15:59:05 UTC
Suyer wrote:
Cool. No reason to fly BC's anymore.

I too like flying un-agile garbage ships because I too like to get scrammed and then piled on by lamer pubbies who can't even consider flying without support.

Frigs it is.


Let's call it Suyer's Law.

No matter what a change actually does, there will be a post declaring that x ship becomes COMPLETELY USELESS.

.
Eshnala
TURN LEFT
#97 - 2013-03-28 16:05:07 UTC
Tier3s need to be able to only fit their respective short-range versions of guns.

Nagas and Tornados are way to strong with rails/artys and can only be countered by a bigger fleet or a good warpin. And even with the later one they are often able to just burn out or warp because of their good agility/speed.

The big problem with tier3s is not their speed or tank, its their awesome damage projection (in combination with the speed ofc, as it helps to minimize transversal) up to very long ranges without beeing overly vulnerable to smaller/faster ships.

This proposed changes wont do anything to the big dominance of tier3s as fleetdoctrines for large entities but it will hurt the small skirmish pvp even more.
(Nagas/Nados will just fit sensor boosters or have them fitted anyways.)
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-03-28 16:06:19 UTC
Capqu wrote:
The sig radius increase is unnecessary imo, what's the reasoning behind it?


Well, if you would actually read the changes and the posts with blue bars, you would have your answer. Blink
Junko Sideswipe
Love Squad
#99 - 2013-03-28 16:08:02 UTC
Looks good, pretty much what the majority had been asking for, a slightly bigger sig. Cool

PIZZA CEO
Richter Enderas
Kaesong Kosmonauts
#100 - 2013-03-28 16:11:39 UTC
Eshnala wrote:
Tier3s need to be able to only fit their respective short-range versions of guns.

Nagas and Tornados are way to strong with rails/artys and can only be countered by a bigger fleet or a good warpin. And even with the later one they are often able to just burn out or warp because of their good agility/speed.

The big problem with tier3s is not their speed or tank, its their awesome damage projection (in combination with the speed ofc, as it helps to minimize transversal) up to very long ranges without beeing overly vulnerable to smaller/faster ships.

This proposed changes wont do anything to the big dominance of tier3s as fleetdoctrines for large entities but it will hurt the small skirmish pvp even more.
(Nagas/Nados will just fit sensor boosters or have them fitted anyways.)


wow are you telling me that a ship with 8 large guns can shoot far???????????????????

are you a space wizerd or smth