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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

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Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-03-28 13:49:44 UTC
Another thing that could be done. Role penalty to ALL of them: weapons resolution 150%

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-03-28 13:55:45 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Another thing that could be done. Role penalty to ALL of them: weapons resolution 150%


I would suggest all weapons sig resolution should be nerfed a little especially as ships sigs seem to be on the up there is no need for frig weapon sig resolutions to be 25 nothing is that size besides light drones

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#43 - 2013-03-28 13:59:40 UTC
Why is it that the naga, which is the most used, is also being the least changed?
Alara IonStorm
#44 - 2013-03-28 13:59:53 UTC
MuraSaki Siki wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:


NAGA:

Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75000km / 200 (-20) / 8



should be 75 kmLol

Perhaps CCP noticed space is big and massive advanced spaceships should be able engage at longer ranges then a tomahawk missile...

Nah P
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#45 - 2013-03-28 14:00:35 UTC
Quote:
Well currently, if you can use large guns, there is no reason to fly a brutix over say a talos. Honestly theres no reason to fly a Vaga over a Talos the ship is (in its current form) so incredibly broken with its extreme agility and dps projection.


I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree here. In my experience you have several metrics that are all really important to what a ship is good at, and all the ships you mention have completely different allocation of those metrics. Combat BC EHP makes them a lot more ideal as tacklers/bait ships than attack BCs. So having a drake alongside your talos to hold points without getting killed is very valuable. HACs like the vaga generally are much more capable of dealing with small support. So having vaga (or deimos or zealot or even rupture) to support an attack BC by protecting it from tacklers is very valuable. Attack BC have the highest damage/projection so they are generally going to have a lot of value based on that.

The prevalence of each role shifts based on a lot of things, but I don't see a direct tension between them. You don't get read for a roam and say - which ship has the most damage, lets take only those. At least thats been my experience.

@ccp_rise
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2013-03-28 14:02:59 UTC
@MuraSaki Siki

Thanks for the cleanup - fixed accordingly.

@ccp_rise
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#47 - 2013-03-28 14:04:32 UTC
Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2013-03-28 14:04:51 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Well currently, if you can use large guns, there is no reason to fly a brutix over say a talos. Honestly theres no reason to fly a Vaga over a Talos the ship is (in its current form) so incredibly broken with its extreme agility and dps projection.


I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree here. In my experience you have several metrics that are all really important to what a ship is good at, and all the ships you mention have completely different allocation of those metrics. Combat BC EHP makes them a lot more ideal as tacklers/bait ships than attack BCs. So having a drake alongside your talos to hold points without getting killed is very valuable. HACs like the vaga generally are much more capable of dealing with small support. So having vaga (or deimos or zealot or even rupture) to support an attack BC by protecting it from tacklers is very valuable. Attack BC have the highest damage/projection so they are generally going to have a lot of value based on that.

The prevalence of each role shifts based on a lot of things, but I don't see a direct tension between them. You don't get read for a roam and say - which ship has the most damage, lets take only those. At least thats been my experience.



And disagreeing isn't really a bad thing, I asked a question and you gave an honest and direct answer, which I appreciate.

I for one am happy that these are even being tweaked at all, so keep fighting the good fight man.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#49 - 2013-03-28 14:07:52 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle?


To get the desired speeds and align times.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#50 - 2013-03-28 14:08:51 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle?


To get the desired speeds and align times.


And why is it desirable that the ships used by small gangs get more mass than the mass nagas fielded by everyone?
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#51 - 2013-03-28 14:09:42 UTC
Quote:
Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle?


They way their mass vs agility was setup originally is definitely unusual, but there didn't seem to be a good reason to rework it all at this point.

@ccp_rise
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#52 - 2013-03-28 14:10:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle?


They way their mass vs agility was setup originally is definitely unusual, but there didn't seem to be a good reason to rework it all at this point.


I thought the whole point of this was reworking stuff Blink

But why is the blob naga being left unchanged?
Arya Greywolf
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-03-28 14:11:23 UTC
Looks like a good start.

Talos needs to lose its drones though.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#54 - 2013-03-28 14:11:40 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Also why do the talos and nado have so much more mass than the naga and oracle?


To get the desired speeds and align times.


And why is it desirable that the ships used by small gangs get more mass than the mass nagas fielded by everyone?


Why do you think that mass in itself is a meaningful statistic? Try looking at speeds and align times.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#55 - 2013-03-28 14:14:00 UTC
Here is an idea: Just stop the ships from fitting the large long range weapon systems.
Dysphonia Fera
Doomheim
#56 - 2013-03-28 14:15:21 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Here is an idea: Just stop the ships from fitting the large long range weapon systems.

That is a bad idea
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#57 - 2013-03-28 14:16:38 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Here is an idea: Just stop the ships from fitting the large long range weapon systems.


Or limit their fittings so they can only fit certain guns

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#58 - 2013-03-28 14:16:42 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Here is an idea: Just stop the ships from fitting the large long range weapon systems.



NO!!!!

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#59 - 2013-03-28 14:17:27 UTC
Dysphonia Fera wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Here is an idea: Just stop the ships from fitting the large long range weapon systems.

That is a bad idea


Why? The main problem is artynado and rail naga fleets
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2013-03-28 14:21:43 UTC
is it just me or does it feel like these ships are a specialisation?
more like a T2 bc than a T1....

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high