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[Odyssey] Attack Battlecruiser balance pass

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Dysphonia Fera
Doomheim
#21 - 2013-03-28 13:17:25 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
It's hard to evaluate the precise impact of mass increases without having a modified fitting tool to hand, but at first glance these seem to be an extremely minor set of changes that won't have any noticeable effect on the current state of the metagame.

Also, I'm not sure why you're making a big deal about probe time, since anything on grid in a fight will be probed in a single cycle irrespective of its sig radius...


The main use of T3 BCs in eve right now is as sniper fleets - be they the only fleet or as a support fleet for a more "mainline" fleet doctrine. You fight aligned, warp out if stuff gets close, that kinda thing. With a good prober it makes T3 fleets that little bit easier to catch; still not particularly easy, but its far more doable if you align slower.

The sag radius and probes thing is silly, but as someone who has escaped by .1s from a frigate before, in those fringe cases it'll tip the balance a little.
Malukker Ornulf
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-03-28 13:18:03 UTC
Jonas Sukarala wrote:

And nerf the alpha on arties for christ sake they are OP in this regard i think missiles should really do the alpha damage not guns.


This. Maybe not specific to ABC's but on Maelstroms they dominate BS v BS combat in large scale combat. They dominate everything from AHACS (if they have webs atlest) to tracking dreads.
Mourning Souls
Minmatar Republic
#23 - 2013-03-28 13:21:57 UTC
"slightly more vulnerable to probing, bombing, and being caught by tackle than they were."

Didn't think that was possible.

I don't like these changes, but I don't hate them. My only Odyssey issue so far is the TE nerf.
Bobbechk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-28 13:22:45 UTC
*CCP nerfs my ship to have 3km less falloff*
-This will ruin small scale pvp forever

*CCP nerfs the agility and sig radius of tier3 bc hard*
-This wont have any effect at all

Question
Tetsel
House Amamake
#25 - 2013-03-28 13:23:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Tetsel
SB+TE+Nado changes = "We don't want you to snipe that gate" change... PirateRoll

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2013-03-28 13:23:54 UTC
You know bob, you know.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Machiavelli's Nemesis
Angry Mustellid
#27 - 2013-03-28 13:28:04 UTC
Taken as a whole, it seems CCP want Odyssey to turn pvp into a one-dimensional armour brawl, since all the other fleet types are getting systematically nerfed.
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#28 - 2013-03-28 13:28:55 UTC
Changes are not to bad really still dont see real issues on them.
Any ship that is used in large quantities are usually OP,

now slightly slower hmm not really needed
frigates and destroyers are your nightmare in these ships and the fast cruisers aswell,
Wich the talos is prepared for it with drones
taking away drones i dont know maybe give them all atleast a set of scouts. wich will ruin the idea of these ships really
they were designed for hit and run tactics its a ship born for guerilla warfare tactics fast damage on the field and quickly leave if not caught by a pesky frigate,

if people cry about they are to fast well counter fit your fleets to be able to shoot them down one by one while you tackle them.

about nerfing arties sorry dude high alpha by trading in extreme low rate of fire,
besides calculating back to DPS the other ABC's will kill you faster or in about the same time waithing for another carebear excuse here :D

i must say the rebalance jobs are pretty good on a few minor things like the upcoming TE nerf will be able to work that out with a mid slot still.

about insta locking ships ships designed for it should do that like interceptors and HIC's and not a procurer or skiff with a insane amount of scan resolution they are for eating rock wich half the zombies do in eve bashing rocks and talk like they are epic
with that resolution im stunned as my devoter cant pull that targeting speed at that rate,
better fix that CCP TE's are good as they are Tweak the ships first before you nerf modules wich hit every ship out here!!!

now give me my hello kitty Manticore :P Pirate

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2013-03-28 13:29:18 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Taken as a whole, it seems CCP want Odyssey to turn pvp into a one-dimensional armour brawl, since all the other fleet types are getting systematically nerfed.



Roll

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#30 - 2013-03-28 13:30:56 UTC
Grath, I'm not sure exactly what you mean about making room for the other BCs more. I feel like for the most part like combat BC have a very different role than attack BC, so one doesn't really tread hard on the other. Thats not always true, of course, but I wonder maybe what environment you're talking about and what sort of outcome you would be looking for?

@ccp_rise
RTSAvalanche
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#31 - 2013-03-28 13:33:02 UTC
Making armor boats more agile & faster with honeycomb & no speed reduction on active armor rigs

..then nerfing Tracking Enhancers by 30%


enough with making this game for the n00bs...... stop killing solo pvp


Keep this up and it will be the WOW player base with the higher IQ


and remember this, the hardcore gamers have been around the longest & stay the longest! This casual market you're opening your game to won't have people playing for the 10years, they stay here for a few months then move on to the next latest game - do not turn your back on the old players & hardcore ones

want to know why eve lasted so long? it's because hard games (like Chess) can last a life time - dont mess that up!!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-03-28 13:34:20 UTC
They are still bad ships for the metagame. They make battleships useless on most scenarios.


They need to loose 1 turret, unless you intend to boost battleships so that they can become more attractive .

Battleships larger HP pool do not pay off . They are far less mobile, lock much slower, are less agile, less top speed for same amount of firepower.

Most of the combat usages of battleships can be replaced by the attack BC. So the BC need a significative firepower nerf or the Battleships will need a significative boost of some sort.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-03-28 13:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Bobbechk wrote:
*CCP nerfs the agility and sig radius of tier3 bc hard*

I plugged the Talos changes into evehq. Using the vanilla shield setup with an all-V character, its top unheated mwd speed goes from 1.6 km/s to 1.53 km/s and its prop-active align time goes from 8.2s to 8.65s.

To me, that seems like a very gentle nerf to agility/speed.

v0v
Bakuhz
NED-Clan
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2013-03-28 13:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bakuhz
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They are still bad ships for the metagame. They make battleships useless on most scenarios.


They need to loose 1 turret, unless you intend to boost battleships so that they can become more attractive .

Battleships larger HP pool do not pay off . They are far less mobile, lock much slower, are less agile, less top speed for same amount of firepower.

Most of the combat usages of battleships can be replaced by the attack BC. So the BC need a significative firepower nerf or the Battleships will need a significative boost of some sort.


Lets go for a DPS boost on BS as they are basic a baby dread and just for siege slow or non moving objects
even if like hell say 500 dps extra they wont hurt the game play
then the traded of for slow as brick with fire power is affordable and somethign to think about

and i still want a hello kitty manticore

https://zkillboard.com/character/584042527/
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2013-03-28 13:41:24 UTC
Castellan Garran Crowe wrote:
EDIT: Please bring back Torpedo Naga!!!


No.

RTSAvalanche wrote:
enough with making this game for the n00bs...... stop killing solo pvp


Have you ever thought of tier 3s as not ment for solo pvp in the first place? They're a ship designed to bring BS sized dps to a cruiser gang, everything else is an anomaly / bonus.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-03-28 13:42:21 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They are still bad ships for the metagame. They make battleships useless on most scenarios.


They need to loose 1 turret, unless you intend to boost battleships so that they can become more attractive .

Battleships larger HP pool do not pay off . They are far less mobile, lock much slower, are less agile, less top speed for same amount of firepower.

Most of the combat usages of battleships can be replaced by the attack BC. So the BC need a significative firepower nerf or the Battleships will need a significative boost of some sort.


I would opt for the turret loss as bare minimum... some bs's do need more firepower however and tank

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2013-03-28 13:44:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
CCP Rise wrote:
Grath, I'm not sure exactly what you mean about making room for the other BCs more. I feel like for the most part like combat BC have a very different role than attack BC, so one doesn't really tread hard on the other. Thats not always true, of course, but I wonder maybe what environment you're talking about and what sort of outcome you would be looking for?


Well currently, if you can use large guns, there is no reason to fly a brutix over say a talos. Honestly theres no reason to fly a Vaga over a Talos the ship is (in its current form) so incredibly broken with its extreme agility and dps projection. Naga's aren't as agile and deadly but still do a fair bit of damage.

Normally broken things in EVE only become really evident when placed in the fleet setting and mass used, and the attack BC's are pretty much the exact opposite. Fleets of them really don't matter, they get carved up because they're so thin (intentional design) that makes them much less attractive than Battleship fleets.

However in the smaller gang and lowsec setting they start to show their skewed nature by outclassing most smaller and larger things to the point where its near silly. At the moment in smaller gang engagements or solo roaming the best ship to fly is hands down the Talos, flying anything else isn't because its better at the job, but because you like variety, there is nothing that compares to its performance pound for pound.

I'm not sure if I'm getting my point across in words that make sense but I'm really hoping it made some form of sense, and I am curious to see how your agility and mass changes alter the landscape, I'm just curious about the actual dps projection of these platforms and if its at a place that the balance team is happy with.


EDIT; Also don't let the spergy people get you down, you're doing gods work and they'll always complain

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
MuraSaki Siki
ChuangShi
Fraternity.
#38 - 2013-03-28 13:47:07 UTC  |  Edited by: MuraSaki Siki
CCP Rise wrote:


NAGA:

Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 75000km / 200 (-20) / 8



should be 75 kmLol


CCP Rise wrote:


TALOS:

Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km / 210 (-20) / 6



the max targetting no. now is 7, i think it should not be changed, is it?
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2013-03-28 13:47:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagehi
CCP Rise wrote:
Grath, I'm not sure exactly what you mean about making room for the other BCs more. I feel like for the most part like combat BC have a very different role than attack BC, so one doesn't really tread hard on the other. Thats not always true, of course, but I wonder maybe what environment you're talking about and what sort of outcome you would be looking for?

Since you aren't changing their speed, I don't think they are more susceptible to bombing runs as they will continue to be able to blow past bubbles and away from the bombs before they land. They still lock extremely fast for ships that melt through other ships as fast as they do.

EDIT: Oh, right, mass increase. Decreases speed. My bad. Carry on.
Nova Satar
Pator Tech School
#40 - 2013-03-28 13:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Satar
These wont make any difference at all, to anything, but its good to see tweaks are atleast being considered and that you guys are keeping an eye on it!

I personally didnt have issue with the tier 3 speed or agility as their defence is so poor it's required. I think the best balance for tier 3's came in the form of the cruiser buff