These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Tor'en
Rebel Legion
#161 - 2013-03-28 06:18:56 UTC
Some really nice changes and mostly quite good, as after the buff to T1 cruisers Faction versions really were de-facto nerfed.

The new Nomen looks awesome and I'm looking forward to it especially.

However the unfortunate trend with Minmatar continues and I really don't understand why this hate. I know that there was a time with winmatar that was getting quite silly but to do a complete 180deg and to continue to ignore all the comments in regards to them is just really dissapointing.

Lets face it the Stabber is by far the worst T1 cruiser (and the changes are like re-arranging deck chairs on Titanic) and while Rupture and Bellicose are ok, both are sub par in comparison to other races.

The less said about the Hurricane the better. PG nerf is just plain annoying and general speed nerf across the board makes Minmatar just way too compromised. Cyclone is probably the only example of Minmatar done right, but overal it is also far from great.

And now the poor SFI. Seriously there was nothing wrong with it, so why mess with agility/mass. It just doesn't compute that the agility is brought on par with other races and the increase in signature radius make the signature tanking impossible. (The one thing I really liked with some more creative fits are the AB sig tanked ones which increasingly are more and more difficult due to tendency to make everything not ballanced, but simply uniform.

The attempt with split weapons on Scythe is pretty shite IMHO, as it tries to be too many things at one and as a result there are better alternatives. Please make it a focused ship, missiles or guns, and can the idea of diversity through split systems.

I am just said that the trend is to crate much of a muchness, and as a result Minmatar are constantly the ones getting the short end of the stick. Probably this post will also be ignored, but at least I tried. :)
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#162 - 2013-03-28 06:21:21 UTC
Really excited about the NOmen. But I am wondering why it gets a utility high like the Slicer. Nobody I know ever uses that bloody high, because it doesn't do anything outside of scram range.
Regardless though, it'll be a great high speed kiting ship. Probably get ~3km/s out of it without links/boosts/implants, and have 30-40km range with pulse. I'm liking that thought. The DPS is a little low, but workable considering the range.

The NAugoror is looking like a fantastic Maller. Huge tank, great in a brawl, an extra low. I can't wait to undock that nasty.

The Navy Vexor looks to be getting a nice buff. 5 heavies/sentries with speed/tracking bonuses will make it a big threat on the battlefield. I wouldn't be surprised if a miniature slowcat style doctrine was adopted with these... or maybe I would be considering the poor damage application of sentries on small ships, the poor rep level/range of unbonused medium reps, and the cost of the hulls. Regardless though, nice droneboat.

That ScytheFI is looking nasty. 8 effective guns on a hull that fast is going to be a menace on the battlefield, and just to mix things up you can even go with 6 effective launchers and do the kite thing. Still, it'll be a threat for sure.

StabberFI was hardly changed. Some tiny nerfs, but overall it's about the same ship. The mass change is hardly noticable compared to pre-honeycombing armour SFI's.

The NExequoror is going to be nasty. I'm glad I'm in the process of training up T2 blasters. It's looking like a great ship to fly. I think it'll be a lot of fun.

OspreyNI is looking a little lacklustre. It's quick, but the damage is a bit low. I'll give it a shot before passing judgement, but I think it could use a bit more damage seeing as it only matches the ScytheFI for damage (when using kinetic. Worse with any other damage type) and is a good bit slower (20m/s base). Perhaps the extra mid makes up for it, but we'll see how it turns out.

The Navy Caracal is looking downright fantastic for a brawler. Great damage output at 8 effective launchers, with a heavy shield tank and a reduction to explosion radius will make it a fantastic ship. It should be applying damage well to Destroyers with HAMS, and even be hitting frigates decently with them. It'll be a big threat to anything it gets close (though not too close) to. The 15km range on HAMS will make it a good threat within its effective range.


Overall, fantastic changes. I can't wait for this to arrive. I'm really looking forward to most of the ships.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#163 - 2013-03-28 06:23:35 UTC
Rhnra Pahineh wrote:
I don't understand why the navy version of the support cruisers are not support cruisers them self... Can anybody explain it to me?


Would be cool to have Navy logis, but maybe they'd be better as T2 Navy ships?

.
Goldensaver
Maraque Enterprises
Just let it happen
#164 - 2013-03-28 06:30:39 UTC
Tor'en wrote:


And now the poor SFI. Seriously there was nothing wrong with it, so why mess with agility/mass. It just doesn't compute that the agility is brought on par with other races and the increase in signature radius make the signature tanking impossible. (The one thing I really liked with some more creative fits are the AB sig tanked ones which increasingly are more and more difficult due to tendency to make everything not ballanced, but simply uniform.

The attempt with split weapons on Scythe is pretty shite IMHO, as it tries to be too many things at one and as a result there are better alternatives. Please make it a focused ship, missiles or guns, and can the idea of diversity through split systems.

I am just said that the trend is to crate much of a muchness, and as a result Minmatar are constantly the ones getting the short end of the stick. Probably this post will also be ignored, but at least I tried. :)


Seriously. Don't get why people are losing it over the StabberFI changes, and the ScytheFI is probably going to be great.

StabberFI:
People complaining about the armour value nerf completely boggle my mind. It's 61 armour. That's almost nothing. Really. It doesn't even total over 80 with all skills applied. That much armour is nothing. The sig radius changes are almost negligible. It's a smaller difference than the sizes between frigates. It's still one of the smaller cruisers, and it gets to sport a pretty solid tank, and move decently quick to boot.
And as for the mass increase, if you're armour tanking your SFI then there's almost no change from before the Armour Honeycombing skill was introduced. And it was fine before that skill, so I don't see where the big deal is.
The only thing I see being a *real* nerf is the 2 CPU due to how tight some of the fits I have seen can be, and that's easily compensated by going to meta.

ScytheFI:
Looks like it's going to be fine to me. The only difficulty will be damage application at range without a falloff bonus, but it gets an effective 8 guns and goes really ******* fast. It'll be great for kiting. And as for the missile variant, it'll also be really ******* fast, and will do equal damage in all types to a Navy Osprey shooting Kinetic. The only thing the Osprey has on the ScytheFI is missile velocity (so range) and one mid (tank, if you're actually getting close enough to be shot...) They both might have a decent role, but I think the ScytheFI will pull it off better, personally. I think the ScytheFI will be just fine, all said and done.
Ashina Sito
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#165 - 2013-03-28 07:05:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashina Sito
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Vexor Navy Issue: 5 heavy drones make this a very exciting ship, at the expense of almost all the gun damage. Flies like a modified Ishtar or Gila, sacrificing resists and dronebay for easier damage application.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to drone velocity and tracking
10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield
Slot layout: 4 H(-1), 4 M(+1), 6 L, 2(-3) turrets
Fittings: 800 PWG(+100), 310(+10) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1650(-635) / 3000(+539) / 3000(+187)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-550)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500(+125) / 490s(-1.25) / 3
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+40) / 0.44(-0.106) / 11310000(+400,000) / 6.9s(-1.36)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 125(+25) / 200(+100)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 52.5km / 285(+9) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 20(+3) Magnetometric
Signature radius: 135
Cargo capacity: 460(+195)


Let us know what you think!



Bleah!

Not sure where being able to fly with 5 heavy drones make this ship worth using. It would if almost all of the gun damage was not taken away. There is no need in Eve for a crappier version of the Ishtar or Gila... use one of those ships instead, the extra ISK spent is worth it.

With these changes...

Your running around after dropping ether Heavys or Sentrys doing damage while getting caught because your armor tank is dragging down your mobility and speed.

Or

The other choice seems to be the Gallente version of the "Coward's Ship" AKA the Vagabond except you get to some actual damage with your drones and have no defenses against frigs. \0/

Using as a kiting ship with heavys or sentrys it will fail, if your target can't kill you they will kill your dones and you don't have the drone bay for 5 25m3 replacements. If they don't shoot at your drones you (or they) will kite out of range of the sentrys and not be able to deploy a second set because of the lack of drone space (an Ishtar can do this). If your using heavys then your opponent is outrunning them even with the +25% speed, the tracking does not help in that situation since drones MWD, approach, stop, fire and now the drones transversal is though the roof on the MWDing ship and they all miss. If you have the ship web/scrammed then your not kiting Ugh.

Not sure why anyone would want to fly this over a Vexor. I can get more DPS out of the Vexor, since I get I get drone and gun damage. The extra tank is nice but dead things don't shoot so I would rather have the greater DPS. On top of that the Vexor splits damage between guns and drones (a destructible weapon) which means I have more flexibility in damage application (and Ewar) and if my drones go down I still have my guns to kill stuff with. On top of all that it is a cheaper platform to fly.

Vexor > Navy Vexor. More damage, more flexibility, better damage application and cheaper.

Why am I flying a Navy Vexor then?


Note: if the Navy Vex is going to replace the Ishtar and the Ishtar is going to be the T2 version of the OMGWTFPWNDPS boat that the Vexor is then all this is moot.
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#166 - 2013-03-28 07:29:34 UTC
DAT OMEN.

I literally double fist pumped in the air when I read the bonuses.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
McBrideCZ
Industrial Mining and Mayhem
Sigma Grindset
#167 - 2013-03-28 07:32:13 UTC
Overall, changes looks good, but why is the Omen Navy Issue so low on defense?
Keep 1800 shield, buff armor from 2250 to 2750.
White Drop
Nomads of Republic
Smile 'n' Wave
#168 - 2013-03-28 08:49:33 UTC
Why do you nerf such nice minmatar ships? It was hard to get advantage with Fleet stabber, not it won't be better.
Onnen Mentar
Murientor Tribe
#169 - 2013-03-28 09:43:21 UTC
The changes look pretty ok. The fleet scythe really needs more powergrid though.

Minmatar Balancing, 3 suggestions.
To mare
Advanced Technology
#170 - 2013-03-28 09:43:48 UTC
the 10% to projectile rof on the scythe seems too good to be true and make the missile bonus totally useless especially with 4/4 turret/launcher and 5 highs, the Nomen change of role from DPS machine to kite ships its strange, since when that its amarr gamestyle?

and to all the ppl complaining about this new cruisers vs T2 ships keep in mind T2 still have to be rebalancesd
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2013-03-28 09:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Goldensaver wrote:
Tor'en wrote:


And now the poor SFI. Seriously there was nothing wrong with it, so why mess with agility/mass. It just doesn't compute that the agility is brought on par with other races and the increase in signature radius make the signature tanking impossible. (The one thing I really liked with some more creative fits are the AB sig tanked ones which increasingly are more and more difficult due to tendency to make everything not ballanced, but simply uniform.

The attempt with split weapons on Scythe is pretty shite IMHO, as it tries to be too many things at one and as a result there are better alternatives. Please make it a focused ship, missiles or guns, and can the idea of diversity through split systems.

I am just said that the trend is to crate much of a muchness, and as a result Minmatar are constantly the ones getting the short end of the stick. Probably this post will also be ignored, but at least I tried. :)


Seriously. Don't get why people are losing it over the StabberFI changes, and the ScytheFI is probably going to be great.

StabberFI:
People complaining about the armour value nerf completely boggle my mind. It's 61 armour. That's almost nothing. Really. It doesn't even total over 80 with all skills applied. That much armour is nothing. The sig radius changes are almost negligible. It's a smaller difference than the sizes between frigates. It's still one of the smaller cruisers, and it gets to sport a pretty solid tank, and move decently quick to boot.
And as for the mass increase, if you're armour tanking your SFI then there's almost no change from before the Armour Honeycombing skill was introduced. And it was fine before that skill, so I don't see where the big deal is.
The only thing I see being a *real* nerf is the 2 CPU due to how tight some of the fits I have seen can be, and that's easily compensated by going to meta.

ScytheFI:
Looks like it's going to be fine to me. The only difficulty will be damage application at range without a falloff bonus, but it gets an effective 8 guns and goes really ******* fast. It'll be great for kiting. And as for the missile variant, it'll also be really ******* fast, and will do equal damage in all types to a Navy Osprey shooting Kinetic. The only thing the Osprey has on the ScytheFI is missile velocity (so range) and one mid (tank, if you're actually getting close enough to be shot...) They both might have a decent role, but I think the ScytheFI will pull it off better, personally. I think the ScytheFI will be just fine, all said and done.


Did you comapre its final speed? Its a minmatar ships that is SLOW compared to the new values of others. And there has been already some time that minmatar ships are not the most agile anymore, in fact they are 3rd on thta now. All other cruisers were massively buffed on speed. The stabber gained mass instead.

In fact the ships are entirely upside down. THe omen play like a minmatar ship and the stabber plays like an amarr ship (but without the Hitpoints and capacitor to do that)

Te problem is not on being powerful oir not, it is that its loosing the minmatar flavor and role. Minmatar are supposed to be weaker hitpoint wise have less capacitor etc.. but be the most agile. The game was conceptualzied this way and that has been raped bit by bit.


Is that to nerf minmatar? So why not simply reduce all AC dps by 5% and keep minmatar beign the fastest and most agile race as it should conceptually be?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Castellan Garran Crowe
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#172 - 2013-03-28 09:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Castellan Garran Crowe
CCP Fozzie,

This is probably and irrelevant question but, since you guys are working on the Navy Frigates and now the Navy Cruisers, is there any sort of plan or possibility of seeing Navy Destroyers and/or Battlecruisers?
Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#173 - 2013-03-28 10:07:48 UTC
Crikey, the Navy ships are going to be a bit good aren't they?
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#174 - 2013-03-28 10:11:50 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
Crikey, the Navy ships are going to be a bit good aren't they?


yep and now for pirate cruisers? please Fozzie :)

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#175 - 2013-03-28 10:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
I have been playing EVE for six months. When I started out I chose Minmatar because I heard they were a bit fragile but fast.

I bitterly regret that decision, as Minmatar ships have continued to receive one nerf after another. I realised the writing was on the wall a few days ago, and am now training Caldari/Missiles, then Amarr/Lasers, but I am very very pissed that I now basically have to start all over again.

I wouldn't mind so much if the really shite Minmatar ships got buffed, but that didn't happen.

My SFI won't be replaced when it eventually gets killed.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#176 - 2013-03-28 11:12:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lloyd Roses
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I have been playing EVE for six months. When I started out I chose Minmatar because I heard they were a bit fragile but fast.

I bitterly regret that decision, as Minmatar ships have continued to receive one nerf after another. I realised the writing was on the wall a few days ago, and am now training Caldari/Missiles, then Amarr/Lasers, but I am very very pissed that I now basically have to start all over again.

I wouldn't mind so much if the really shite Minmatar ships got buffed, but that didn't happen.

My SFI won't be replaced when it eventually gets killed.


Fellow minnie bro, our ships might be pulled back in line with the recent nerfs, but our duct-tape-awesomeness is still there.

Still there are hardly any other ships avoiding hostile comfy zones aswell as flexmater, master of being less worse in any reachable spot than any ship they are fighting. Cane might not be the second-in-line amongst the battlecruisers anymore, but that neut is good as ever, stabber was a weak ship, it's getting fixed, ruptures are still hilarious with AC-neut-nanofits, vagabonds are still bossy and the fleet stabber does almost exactly the same as pre-honeycombing -- given that the change in armorhp is insignificant once one slapped a 1600 plate on there. At least I feel that way for nearly all minmatarships (rifter+stabber aside)


HOLY CRAP THIS NAVY OMEN!
awesome \o/, come at me bro, I kite you and got warriors/hornet ec-300s on board!

other navy cruisers, can't say much, flew none of them besides the fleet stabber and the navy omen before.
Lina Halid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#177 - 2013-03-28 11:13:19 UTC
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
stabber fleet changes are a bit odd imo. mass penalty but a reduction in armour and hull with a random shield increase.

might work better with a reduction in shield hp and a slight buff to armour hp that will fit with the mass penalty.


Yay, let's buff the shield HP and reduce the armour HP on a ship which is getting a mass increase. Way to make a nice versatile ship into a crap brawler AND crap at kiting. Makes perfect sense.


I doubt Fozzie has flown those ships in any really tight combat situation so I bet you'll see even more odd ideas from him... Not that I don't appreciate his work. But sometimes it's become obvious he doesn't understand all the game's aspects equally good.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#178 - 2013-03-28 11:24:52 UTC
Lina Halid wrote:
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Smoking Blunts wrote:
stabber fleet changes are a bit odd imo. mass penalty but a reduction in armour and hull with a random shield increase.

might work better with a reduction in shield hp and a slight buff to armour hp that will fit with the mass penalty.


Yay, let's buff the shield HP and reduce the armour HP on a ship which is getting a mass increase. Way to make a nice versatile ship into a crap brawler AND crap at kiting. Makes perfect sense.


I doubt Fozzie has flown those ships in any really tight combat situation so I bet you'll see even more odd ideas from him... Not that I don't appreciate his work. But sometimes it's become obvious he doesn't understand all the game's aspects equally good.



dont complain.. in past we had a dev that I shall not name that balanced capital missiles with a huge explosion radius and said that dreads should use target painter to achieve all their DPS against other dreads. Detail being that dreads are immune to e-War, including target painters . That was an extreme example of never playing the game

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Lina Halid
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#179 - 2013-03-28 11:40:39 UTC
Goldensaver wrote:
Tor'en wrote:


And now the poor SFI. Seriously there was nothing wrong with it, so why mess with agility/mass. It just doesn't compute that the agility is brought on par with other races and the increase in signature radius make the signature tanking impossible. (The one thing I really liked with some more creative fits are the AB sig tanked ones which increasingly are more and more difficult due to tendency to make everything not ballanced, but simply uniform.

The attempt with split weapons on Scythe is pretty shite IMHO, as it tries to be too many things at one and as a result there are better alternatives. Please make it a focused ship, missiles or guns, and can the idea of diversity through split systems.

I am just said that the trend is to crate much of a muchness, and as a result Minmatar are constantly the ones getting the short end of the stick. Probably this post will also be ignored, but at least I tried. :)


Seriously. Don't get why people are losing it over the StabberFI changes, and the ScytheFI is probably going to be great.

StabberFI:
People complaining about the armour value nerf completely boggle my mind. It's 61 armour. That's almost nothing. Really. It doesn't even total over 80 with all skills applied. That much armour is nothing. The sig radius changes are almost negligible. It's a smaller difference than the sizes between frigates. It's still one of the smaller cruisers, and it gets to sport a pretty solid tank, and move decently quick to boot.
And as for the mass increase, if you're armour tanking your SFI then there's almost no change from before the Armour Honeycombing skill was introduced. And it was fine before that skill, so I don't see where the big deal is.
The only thing I see being a *real* nerf is the 2 CPU due to how tight some of the fits I have seen can be, and that's easily compensated by going to meta.

ScytheFI:
Looks like it's going to be fine to me. The only difficulty will be damage application at range without a falloff bonus, but it gets an effective 8 guns and goes really ******* fast. It'll be great for kiting. And as for the missile variant, it'll also be really ******* fast, and will do equal damage in all types to a Navy Osprey shooting Kinetic. The only thing the Osprey has on the ScytheFI is missile velocity (so range) and one mid (tank, if you're actually getting close enough to be shot...) They both might have a decent role, but I think the ScytheFI will pull it off better, personally. I think the ScytheFI will be just fine, all said and done.


Man, I don't wanna be rude, but it's become really obvious out of your post that you don't understand something. Let's see, nowdays I use my StabberFI as a cheap vaga in my solo roams. Its speed is 2834 m/s and 1st fall-off is 26km with barrage. Its dps sucks on this distance to kill anything but frigate-size ships, but kills are kills, and it's a good fun anyway.

After StabberFI will become 1M tonns heavier and TE be nerfed... Well, I can forget about it as a solo roamer. I hope you'll understand my logic.
Cameron Cahill
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#180 - 2013-03-28 11:52:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cameron Cahill
+1 to the navy omen changes, except for the hp, considering the sfi has more armour without the penaly to shield amount that the omen has. Surely it would be better with the ammar ship having more armour and less shield than its minmatar counterpart, not less of both.

E: also have to agree with all the fleet stabber is fine as it is posts considering it will suffer from the TE nerf.