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Prolific Ripard versus Terrible Trebor

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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#21 - 2013-03-28 05:39:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Also, since the CSM members are under NDA on almost all issues, we cannot be sure that [Trebor offered any] amazing contributions to the CSM and the game over the years.
We only have his word after all, and CCP is not going to speak on the issue.**

As for sourcing Trebor's comments. Read the CSM Winter Summit minutes where he suggests either removing wardecs and making them consensual only.

Listen to this interview with Xander Phoena (crossingzebras.com) where he mentions safe areas being an area that should be considered if it means more subscribers, which means more revenue for CCP. See the same comments again in the Trebor vs. Psychotic Monk debate in the Declarations of War podcast.


** Yes. I misquoted you. On the one hand you want to use the NDA as a shield, stating that we don't know what bad ideas Trebor may have presented to CCP, on the other hand you seem quite convinced of his amazing achievements on the CSM. You don't get to have it both ways.

OK let's look at Trebor's Winter Summit, Crossing Zebra's, and Declarations of War appearances. In order. Trebor starts off positing the removing highsec PVP entirely might be a good idea. After much discussion with me, the community, and generally thinking it over he refines his position to supporting a limited area of safety with reduced economic opportunities.

I still dont agree with him (if such systems were to exist they'd have to be virtually sterile in terms of income potential) but it shows a thoughtful evolution on an issue based on intense debate, a debate which it's worth noting refines and tests the arguments and assumptions of the other side (you can see this at work on Declarations of War). This is very typical of Trebor and it's an excellent quality in a CSM rep.

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-03-28 07:15:50 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
OK let's look at Trebor's Winter Summit, Crossing Zebra's, and Declarations of War appearances. In order. Trebor starts off positing the removing highsec PVP entirely might be a good idea. After much discussion with me, the community, and generally thinking it over he refines his position to supporting a limited area of safety with reduced economic opportunities.

I still dont agree with him (if such systems were to exist they'd have to be virtually sterile in terms of income potential) but it shows a thoughtful evolution on an issue based on intense debate, a debate which it's worth noting refines and tests the arguments and assumptions of the other side (you can see this at work on Declarations of War). This is very typical of Trebor and it's an excellent quality in a CSM rep.
He still had the idea to begin with, which is terrible.

So, for Trebor to be on the CSM, you're saying he constantly needs someone looking over his shoulder, someone to talk him down from his terrible ideas. That doesn't sound like an ideal CSM member to me.
Frying Doom
#23 - 2013-03-28 09:36:56 UTC
Friggz wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
We only have his word after all, and CCP is not going to speak on the issue.


Well, there is one group of people who know what is happening behind closed doors. That'd be the rest of the CSM, and half of them are endorsing Trebor, including the ones who don't agree with him. You don't think that might just be a sign he's doing something right?

Or the fact that CSM 7 has only 2 candidates running this time around, and the other one does not speak English very well.

The basic fact is that CSM 7 sold out us players to CCP and so of course they are going to support the only English speaking member left.

The fact that CSM7 sold us out is a fact, you are talking speculation.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#24 - 2013-03-28 10:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Poetic Stanziel wrote:

As for sourcing Trebor's comments. Read the CSM Winter Summit minutes where he suggests either removing wardecs and making them consensual only.

Listen to this interview with Xander Phoena (crossingzebras.com) where he mentions safe areas being an area that should be considered if it means more subscribers, which means more revenue for CCP. See the same comments again in the Trebor vs. Psychotic Monk debate in the Declarations of War podcast.


(Paragraph 1) How does this have a thing to do with his historical "bad business decisions" ?


(2) Well, he is making a point about what would happen if war decs were indeed eliminated.

But does that mean what he wants to have actually happen ? Are you castigating someone for have a contrary opinion of the game mechanics than yourself ?

Also, you ever heard of someone playing Devil's Advocate to make sure all issues are covered thoroughly from all angles ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#25 - 2013-03-28 10:23:48 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
He still had the idea to begin with, which is terrible.





Just because Clinton screwed up with DOMA here in America, did that negate the entirety of his Presidency ?

No.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#26 - 2013-03-28 14:05:43 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
I still dont agree with him (if such systems were to exist they'd have to be virtually sterile in terms of income potential)


They do exist already, and they are, appropriately, entirely sterile in income.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#27 - 2013-03-28 14:23:22 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Friggz wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
We only have his word after all, and CCP is not going to speak on the issue.


Well, there is one group of people who know what is happening behind closed doors. That'd be the rest of the CSM, and half of them are endorsing Trebor, including the ones who don't agree with him. You don't think that might just be a sign he's doing something right?

Or the fact that CSM 7 has only 2 candidates running this time around, and the other one does not speak English very well.

The basic fact is that CSM 7 sold out us players to CCP and so of course they are going to support the only English speaking member left.

The fact that CSM7 sold us out is a fact, you are talking speculation.


Oh I see the problem. You don't understand the difference between a 'fact' and an 'opinion'. That the CSM7 "sold us out" in an opinion, in order for it become a fact you'd need to find an objective measurable statistic to use to define the term 'sold us out', then provide verifiable evidence to support that statistic was met.

Maybe you could lay out this 'sold out' conspiracy for me though. Did CCP Bribe the CSM? To help sabotage their own game? I mean, how exactly did they sell out? What are they doing behind closed doors? CCP comes to them and says "We'd like to sabotage our own game because we are idiots, here is free candy, support it!"

It's also got a chuckle out of how we can't believe the CSM endorsements of Trebor because they speak English. 11 of the 13 CSMs listed on the member page are from the US or UK. I'm sorry but most of the people on these here interwebs speak English. I'm willing to bet the remaining Russian and Belgian do, too. The idea that they'd feel compelled to support Trebor just because they share a language is new level of absurdity.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#28 - 2013-03-28 14:30:29 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
He still had the idea to begin with, which is terrible.
Just because Clinton screwed up with DOMA here in America, did that negate the entirety of his Presidency ?

No.


Did he write, author, and promote the bill?

Has Trebor since publicly repudiated the positions in question?

No to both?

Then it's probably a pretty terrible comparison.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#29 - 2013-03-28 14:31:44 UTC
I think the energy here would be better spent warning players about inappropriate candidates such as Fon before he gets elected "for the lulz".

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Frying Doom
#30 - 2013-03-28 14:54:30 UTC
Friggz wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
Friggz wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
We only have his word after all, and CCP is not going to speak on the issue.


Well, there is one group of people who know what is happening behind closed doors. That'd be the rest of the CSM, and half of them are endorsing Trebor, including the ones who don't agree with him. You don't think that might just be a sign he's doing something right?

Or the fact that CSM 7 has only 2 candidates running this time around, and the other one does not speak English very well.

The basic fact is that CSM 7 sold out us players to CCP and so of course they are going to support the only English speaking member left.

The fact that CSM7 sold us out is a fact, you are talking speculation.


Oh I see the problem. You don't understand the difference between a 'fact' and an 'opinion'. That the CSM7 "sold us out" in an opinion, in order for it become a fact you'd need to find an objective measurable statistic to use to define the term 'sold us out', then provide verifiable evidence to support that statistic was met.

Maybe you could lay out this 'sold out' conspiracy for me though. Did CCP Bribe the CSM? To help sabotage their own game? I mean, how exactly did they sell out? What are they doing behind closed doors? CCP comes to them and says "We'd like to sabotage our own game because we are idiots, here is free candy, support it!"

It's also got a chuckle out of how we can't believe the CSM endorsements of Trebor because they speak English. 11 of the 13 CSMs listed on the member page are from the US or UK. I'm sorry but most of the people on these here interwebs speak English. I'm willing to bet the remaining Russian and Belgian do, too. The idea that they'd feel compelled to support Trebor just because they share a language is new level of absurdity.

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2013-03-28 15:05:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Friggz
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.


It depends on voter turn out. The less people who vote the more power each individual vote will command. The new voting system does help make non-bloc votes more powerful by automating the vote organization the blocs do.

CCP choosing who gets to go to Iceland is meaningless. (I assume that's where you are going with this?) The CSM is only be as influential as CCP allows it be, no matter if they are arguing in person of via video conference.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#32 - 2013-03-28 15:53:59 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.



WTF does this have to do with the price or oranges ?

Whatever your opinion, how are you determining it ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#33 - 2013-03-28 19:56:05 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
WTF does this have to do with the price or oranges ?

Whatever your opinion, how are you determining it ?



Hey man, just calm down a moment and put your shirt back on. This isn't the NHL here.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#34 - 2013-03-28 20:33:15 UTC
Apparently our new Quafe Yellow shirts dissolve in Pod Goo ! Big smile

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2013-03-28 21:24:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alekseyev Karrde
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

More. Empirically and absolutely.

Boy that WAS easy lol

EDIT: There's a reason Mittani is talking down participation and why Sort Dragon of the HBC brought up the idea of a "protest" by filling the council with 0.0 guys on Voices from the Void. Automating voter preference, allowing the CSM to elect the chair, and decoupling seats at the conference table from the size of your voting bloc all reduce the advantages 0.0 blocs have enjoyed since CSM1

Alek the Kidnapper, Hero of the CSM
Paxton Brimstone
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2013-03-29 00:56:48 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/03/prolific-ripard-versus-terrible-trebor.html



One worrying aspect about Trebor is that most of his ideas concerning EVE's future direction boil down to him arguing those suggestions in favour of CCP's bottom line. He claims to know how to grow CCP's business.

Yet, look at his own business ventures. He created the Wizardry line of video games thirty years ago. He stopped being involved by the fourth sequel, and Sir-Tech eventually went out of business. Later he developed the first anti-virus software for the Macintosh, the company was eventually sold in early days. Then he founded AnimEigo, the first company to license Japanese anime for the North American market. AnimEigo is his only company still in business, yet it was leap frogged by other more successful ventures into the market afterwards. First in the industry, last past the post. Trebor has a good track record in recognizing new markets, not much of one in capitalizing on those new markets. He has demonstrated no ability to adapt.

He certainly knows how to create a promising business. Yet, he's demonstrated no long-term growth or follow-through with those businesses. Every business has either folded, been sold-off, or has stagnated. Yet, much of his platform devolves into the argument that what he suggests would help CCP grow their company..



ok I get the message but I just had 1 question to the OP...and don't take this wrong as I am not a supporter of either candidate.

The quoted material above is quite impressive and I would be proud to accomplish as much in RL. I mean starting multiple ideas and ventures then making $ in such a way sure beats the hell out of what i do for a living. I just don't see the shame or discredit to not be any worse than other people running to be in CSM8 his life's work. How is a pimple faced young man in a college dorm, burger flipper or a retired Veteran more or less qualified?

What have you done in RL that makes your criticism of Trebor and his RL career hold weight?
Poetic Stanziel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-03-29 01:02:52 UTC
Paxton Brimstone wrote:
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
One worrying aspect about Trebor is that most of his ideas concerning EVE's future direction boil down to him arguing those suggestions in favour of CCP's bottom line. He claims to know how to grow CCP's business.

Yet, look at his own business ventures. He created the Wizardry line of video games thirty years ago. He stopped being involved by the fourth sequel, and Sir-Tech eventually went out of business. Later he developed the first anti-virus software for the Macintosh, the company was eventually sold in early days. Then he founded AnimEigo, the first company to license Japanese anime for the North American market. AnimEigo is his only company still in business, yet it was leap frogged by other more successful ventures into the market afterwards. First in the industry, last past the post. Trebor has a good track record in recognizing new markets, not much of one in capitalizing on those new markets. He has demonstrated no ability to adapt.

He certainly knows how to create a promising business. Yet, he's demonstrated no long-term growth or follow-through with those businesses. Every business has either folded, been sold-off, or has stagnated. Yet, much of his platform devolves into the argument that what he suggests would help CCP grow their company..
The quoted material above is quite impressive and I would be proud to accomplish as much in RL.
I give him due credit:

"Trebor has a good track record in recognizing new markets, not much of one in capitalizing on those new markets."
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#38 - 2013-03-29 01:22:08 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Apparently our new Quafe Yellow shirts dissolve in Pod Goo ! Big smile



Well, I, for one, am glad you figured out how to dress yourself today.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frying Doom
#39 - 2013-03-29 01:43:05 UTC
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

More. Empirically and absolutely.

Boy that WAS easy lol

EDIT: There's a reason Mittani is talking down participation and why Sort Dragon of the HBC brought up the idea of a "protest" by filling the council with 0.0 guys on Voices from the Void. Automating voter preference, allowing the CSM to elect the chair, and decoupling seats at the conference table from the size of your voting bloc all reduce the advantages 0.0 blocs have enjoyed since CSM1

So our votes now chose 10 people that go to Iceland?

No the reality is that while there are fewer wasted votes the votes them selves do a lot less than they used too.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!
Friggz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-03-29 02:45:15 UTC
Frying Doom wrote:
Alekseyev Karrde wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:

Ok lets see if you can answer a simple question

Do our votes have more or less power in the CSM election than they did last year?

honest it is an easy question.

More. Empirically and absolutely.

Boy that WAS easy lol

EDIT: There's a reason Mittani is talking down participation and why Sort Dragon of the HBC brought up the idea of a "protest" by filling the council with 0.0 guys on Voices from the Void. Automating voter preference, allowing the CSM to elect the chair, and decoupling seats at the conference table from the size of your voting bloc all reduce the advantages 0.0 blocs have enjoyed since CSM1

So our votes now chose 10 people that go to Iceland?

No the reality is that while there are fewer wasted votes the votes them selves do a lot less than they used too.


Why do you feel popular vote from voters operating on limited information before the term begins is a better way to choose the Iceland delegates than the CSM and CCP making an informed decision after seeing who puts the work in?
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