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[Odyssey] Faction Navy Cruisers

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Bosquit
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#81 - 2013-03-27 20:49:25 UTC
Del Vikus wrote:
Really confused at your choices for the Minmatar ships.

Giving bonuses to other ships = YAY!

Nerfing the one good Navy ship = ???

This is one of those instances where you actually don't need to take a step back, you know?

Also, the decision to "redeem" the split weapon bonuses on the Scythe has resulted in...two weapon bonuses? You know that when a hull only receives two hardcoded bonuses, and when both of those bonuses are for different weapons, you realize that is still "split", right?

Am I missing something, or did you mean something else besides "redeem"? Because I don't see a whole lot of that happening here.


Split guns are bad and will always be bad. True it offers more in terms of fitting variability, but it also severely gimps the hull itself. Most other ships will get 2 bonuses, while the Scythe is essentially getting one, which makes no sense.

I expected ships like the Scythe to fill a hole between T2 logistics, and T1 logistics. Offering just a small bonus that would make sense for the increase in price. I mean don't the factions ever use logistics ships?

"Insert Philosophical Statement Here"
Francis Podkill
Podkill Consolidated
#82 - 2013-03-27 20:49:31 UTC
This is awesome. Now its time to show the faction frigs/cruisers (sansha/blood/guristas) some much-deserved love.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#83 - 2013-03-27 20:51:02 UTC
I can't help but feel like people are looking at the optimal bonus like it's a non-bonus because it doesn't affect the pretty EFT number. It's one of the most powerful bonuses in the game - especially on a laser ship. I'm super excited by the new NOmen, and if it's as bad as you claim then we will see them adjust it some in a polish pass.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#84 - 2013-03-27 20:54:43 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I can't help but feel like people are looking at the optimal bonus like it's a non-bonus because it doesn't affect the pretty EFT number. It's one of the most powerful bonuses in the game - especially on a laser ship. I'm super excited by the new NOmen, and if it's as bad as you claim then we will see them adjust it some in a polish pass.

-Liang


Well the issue is keeping a distinction between NOmen and Zealot. Everyone loves optimal bonuses, however having 2 extremely similar boats is not that useful.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#85 - 2013-03-27 20:56:41 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I can't help but feel like people are looking at the optimal bonus like it's a non-bonus because it doesn't affect the pretty EFT number. It's one of the most powerful bonuses in the game - especially on a laser ship. I'm super excited by the new NOmen, and if it's as bad as you claim then we will see them adjust it some in a polish pass.

-Liang


Well the issue is keeping a distinction between NOmen and Zealot. Everyone loves optimal bonuses, however having 2 extremely similar boats is not that useful.


They aren't extremely similar.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#86 - 2013-03-27 21:06:17 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
ENI +1. Quite a bit more than I would have asked for. The 50 ENIs I have in storage are being dusted off now!
VNI +1. Big, fat Tristan.

Both have been buffed more than I would have thought.
Herren Varno
Steel Dust Heavy Industries
#87 - 2013-03-27 21:07:07 UTC
The SFI was a well balanced and great ship to fly with clear strengths and weaknesses - that has already been stealth nerfed by the cruiser buff. Now a nerf to sig, armour and agility, and we get...a shield increase for that?!

We don't need another shield brawler/fail kiter. Sig tanking is supposed to be a cornerstone of Minmatar defence and the SFI is the epitome of this for cruiser sized ships. These nerfs make no sense at all.
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#88 - 2013-03-27 21:08:48 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
I can't help but feel like people are looking at the optimal bonus like it's a non-bonus because it doesn't affect the pretty EFT number. It's one of the most powerful bonuses in the game - especially on a laser ship. I'm super excited by the new NOmen, and if it's as bad as you claim then we will see them adjust it some in a polish pass.

-Liang


Well the issue is keeping a distinction between NOmen and Zealot. Everyone loves optimal bonuses, however having 2 extremely similar boats is not that useful.


They aren't extremely similar.

-Liang

Quote:
Omen Navy Issue: Turning this ship into a much more mobile ship with an optimal bonus, much like a giant Slicer.
Cruiser skill bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
Slot layout: 5(-1) H, 3 M, 7 L, 4(-1) turrets
Fittings: 965 PWG, 335 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1800(-416) / 2250(-463) / 2250(-428)
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s(-500s)
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1650(+25) / 520s(+55.9s) / 3.17(-0.3)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 265(+73) / 0.43(-0.11) / 10850000(-800,000) / 6.47s(-2.25)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50(+25) / 50(+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 57.5km(+12.5) / 320(+27) / 7(-1)
Sensor strength: 17(+1) Radar
Signature radius: 100(-12)
Cargo capacity: 400(+150)


Zealot
Cruiser skill bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage per level, 5% to medium energy turret rate of fire per level
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range, 5% to medium energy turret capacitor use
Slot layout: 5 H, 3 M, 7 L, 5 turrets
Fittings: 1180 PWG, 320 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 984 / 2250 /1688
Shield Recharge Time: 1250s
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / average cap per second): 1500 / 335s
Mobility (max velocity / align time): 209 / 9.7s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution ): 55km / 306/
Sensor strength: 13 Radar
Signature radius: 125
Cargo capacity: 240

aside from velocity and cap recharge rate, these are extremely similar...
In this respect, the NOmen would just replace a zealot in fleets, so I really hope either the NOmen is left distinct from the zealot, or the zealot gets changed to compensate for the NOmen doing it's job better.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#89 - 2013-03-27 21:09:00 UTC
Bosquit wrote:
Sort of agree with that as well, doesn't really make sense giving them weird roles that are so drastically different from their T1 variants. They are just supposed to be slightly superior ships that the Factions use, not completely different.

The trend is to give every single ship something different w.r.t bonus and performance. No ship is simply a better version of another ship anymore. So, these bonuses make perfect sense.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#90 - 2013-03-27 21:15:38 UTC
The scythe needs a 3rd bonus, otherwise its the same issue split weapon systems have always had.

I suggest 3% sig reduction/level
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#91 - 2013-03-27 21:18:33 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
The scythe needs a 3rd bonus, otherwise its the same issue split weapon systems have always had.

I suggest 3% sig reduction/level


already has 90 signature radius, that's almost destroyer level

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Rina Kondur
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#92 - 2013-03-27 21:20:23 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
aside from velocity and cap recharge rate, these are extremely similar...
In this respect, the NOmen would just replace a zealot in fleets, so I really hope either the NOmen is left distinct from the zealot, or the zealot gets changed to compensate for the NOmen doing it's job better.


I guess it's okay to completely disregard the Zealot has more fitting along with an extra turret and other bonuses. What's wrong if it's somewhat similar? It's going be a great low barrier entry hull for people looking to try AHACs like Zealots without requiring the huge amount of ISK and skill points needed to do so.

Not every hull has to be great for solo. I love seeing some of these more suited for fleets, such as the Omen Navy. I don't agree with adding more drones to it and removing a turret, but that's not our call. I'd rather see the drones completely removed and the turret added back in.

As the changes stand now I see it becoming the choice for people with links and implants for solo. A fast cruiser with two flights of drones. These things will have ECM drones out the ass if you see them in solo/small gang. They'll just jam and kite you all day. More of that is not helping solo/small gang stuff.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#93 - 2013-03-27 21:26:33 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:

aside from velocity and cap recharge rate, these are extremely similar...
In this respect, the NOmen would just replace a zealot in fleets, so I really hope either the NOmen is left distinct from the zealot, or the zealot gets changed to compensate for the NOmen doing it's job better.


The difference between the two are staggering:
- The NOmen trades 38% gun DPS (way more if you include overheat) for a drone bay.
- The NOmen trades tank for speed and mobility.
- The NOmen is seriously weak on capacitor.

I don't see how the NOmen is really stepping on the Zealot's toes here.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Sieg oder Valhalla
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#94 - 2013-03-27 21:27:12 UTC
What did the Navy Omen Issue ever do to you, Fozzie? There's no reason to go and **** it like that.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#95 - 2013-03-27 21:27:53 UTC
Rina Kondur wrote:
I don't agree with adding more drones to it and removing a turret, but that's not our call. I'd rather see the drones completely removed and the turret added back in.


I'd really like to see it keep the 25m^3 drone bay and increase the fittings space some. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#96 - 2013-03-27 21:28:35 UTC
Why are you guys complaining about scythe!!!!

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire

Do you know what this means?

Thats 8 effective turrets for you.

Also it will go 2400+ without any boosts, snakes just with MWD.

It will be like a Cyna without falloff bonus....and you guys are complaining??

Oh....you can also fit it as a missile ship if you want it that way too!!!
Pesadel0
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#97 - 2013-03-27 21:31:13 UTC
Deerin wrote:
Why are you guys complaining about scythe!!!!

10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire

Do you know what this means?

Thats 8 effective turrets for you.

Also it will go 2400+ without any boosts, snakes just with MWD.

It will be like a Cyna without falloff bonus....and you guys are complaining??

Oh....you can also fit it as a missile ship if you want it that way too!!!



I think what we are complaining is that they nerfed the *** out of the SFI for no aparent reason..
Richard Bong
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-03-27 21:31:58 UTC
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:


Stuff



The Zealot has 5 turrets, better fitting, and T2 resists, it will not be replaced by the N-Omen.

The N-Omen has 1 less gun and a utility high and a flight of drones. It will either be a cruiser that can participate in AHAC fleets with Amarr Cruiser IV or a small gang DPS ship.

There is a bit of overlap but they do not fill the same slot. I think this is a good thing for the N-Omen.

[ASK] Me about drive by thread shitting!
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2013-03-27 21:33:07 UTC
Rina Kondur wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
aside from velocity and cap recharge rate, these are extremely similar...
In this respect, the NOmen would just replace a zealot in fleets, so I really hope either the NOmen is left distinct from the zealot, or the zealot gets changed to compensate for the NOmen doing it's job better.


I guess it's okay to completely disregard the Zealot has more fitting along with an extra turret and other bonuses. What's wrong if it's somewhat similar? It's going be a great low barrier entry hull for people looking to try AHACs like Zealots without requiring the huge amount of ISK and skill points needed to do so.

Not every hull has to be great for solo. I love seeing some of these more suited for fleets, such as the Omen Navy. I don't agree with adding more drones to it and removing a turret, but that's not our call. I'd rather see the drones completely removed and the turret added back in.

As the changes stand now I see it becoming the choice for people with links and implants for solo. A fast cruiser with two flights of drones. These things will have ECM drones out the ass if you see them in solo/small gang. They'll just jam and kite you all day. More of that is not helping solo/small gang stuff.


the other bonus is gets is capacitor use of guns, and I already said it has better cap. the problem with it being similar is that the more expensive one is not worth getting if the cheaper one does everything the expensive one does at almost the exact same efficiency.

I will drop the topic though, since I barely fly these ships myself, you guys probably know more regarding them than I do.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Pinky Feldman
Amarrian Vengeance
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#100 - 2013-03-27 21:34:22 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Bosquit wrote:
Sort of agree with that as well, doesn't really make sense giving them weird roles that are so drastically different from their T1 variants. They are just supposed to be slightly superior ships that the Factions use, not completely different.

The trend is to give every single ship something different w.r.t bonus and performance. No ship is simply a better version of another ship anymore. So, these bonuses make perfect sense.


Well said, X Gal.

An optimal range bonus for the Nomen adds much needed change to the Meta for solo, small gang, and larger fleet doctrines, since right now its just a more expensive, slightly better Maller. The loss in DPS makes sense in the context of "Currently ships with good range do too much dmg" changes ie: the Drake. Though, it still feels odd that the raw gun DPS is the least out of all T1 Amarr cruisers now. Maybe more drone bandwidth? *Shrugs*

Having less armour than the SFI is a bit silly as well.

Anyways Fozzie, it sounds like you guys are going to be doing some serious changes to the game Meta and I hope you guys go through with some of the more drastic changes despite player protests. Mixing up the game meta is great because of the explosion of PVP that happens as groups test whats good and develop counters of their own.

The moar you cry the less you pee