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Station Trading Bots - CCP Please do something about this!

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Lara Dantreb
Reisende des Schwarzschild Grenze
#21 - 2013-03-26 15:36:17 UTC
I remember a couple of days, a few months ago, when CCP removed the ability to paste numbers from clipboard in a sell order window. Most market bots used to paste numbers to update orders, thus for around 48 hours almost all bots were not functionning anymore.

I had stockpiles of stuff for sale in Jita 4-4 at this moment, and most of this stuff been sold in these 2 days, for around 70B in a week end and I did not even took care to undercut prices... (around 20 times more than usually)

This made me think about the real interest I had in EVE : I don't play market wars anymore, because there is nothing more boring than to fight against bots.

The little bad fact for CCP is that I used to purchase around 300 PLEX per year (my accounts + irl friends). Today, we buy around 30 PLEX per year, just being curious to see what's new from time to time.

---   Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005  ---
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
#22 - 2013-03-26 16:15:03 UTC
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.

Live and learn!!
0Lona 0ltor
Adeptio Gloriae
Train Wreck.
#23 - 2013-03-26 16:40:35 UTC  |  Edited by: 0Lona 0ltor
Stonkeep wrote:
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.

Live and learn!!


Yeah it's a sad fact that CCP like to play up the fact that botting and macroing is against the rules when the majority of the time it's not. Only a very small amount of bots are against the rules pretty much only bots that completely automate via the eve client. Any software that automates outside of the client and then has a user enter the final automated function is completely legit. IE multi boxing programs use macro's to duplicate clicks across several clients. These are not against the rules as long as the macro runs out side the client.

To be fair most multi boxing programs do automate via the eve client and ccp has already said they are ok. I'd like to see a full server restart and a VAC style anti bot program brought in that detects unrealistic mouse movements or playstyles and multi boxers which then bans the account automatically.

There are a few good market bots and anomaly ratting bots that are kosher according to ccp.
sixth sense
#24 - 2013-03-26 17:45:04 UTC
the most deterrent about trading are the 0.1 ISK games. why not give orders a minimum time of 1 - 6 hours after changing it...
Lux Imperator
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-03-26 18:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lux Imperator
The 0,01 thing is the most annoying mechanic you can find in an MMO these days.
Selling stuff on the market should be about ones ability to find lucrative items and negotiate prices (more like an auction house).

In real life how many companies and traders are changing their prices 1 cent 50 times a day ?

Three times I tried to stay in the station trading game and even though I found good items I just didn't had the time and will to play the 0,01 ISK game for too long. No wonder that people use bots as this is the most boring 'activity' you can have.

Please don't take it as a rant, like " OMG this **** bores me so it must be stuuuupid and who ever does it is a no lifer".

I would've do it like this :

1. Seller puts 4000 units for sale at a starting price
2. Traders start to bid for quantities and price. Price can be altered only by a certain % of the start price asked by seller ( thus removing the grind of 0,01). This way , someone that starts to bid has to think a bit before putting the bid and start changing it.

3. After a certain time (+ sniping time) the first bid wins and receives items.

4. If there are items left the auction restarts to determine the second winner and so on.

Thus : no grinding, take brains but less time to do it, much better control of the orders for the buyer, no bots.
Zircon Dasher
#26 - 2013-03-26 21:16:31 UTC
Stonkeep wrote:
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.

Live and learn!!


Fun thought experiment:

How could one leverage the synergies between multiple, and disparate, legit 3rd party software?Twisted

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#27 - 2013-03-26 21:55:41 UTC
Lux Imperator wrote:
The 0,01 thing is the most annoying mechanic you can find in an MMO these days.
Selling stuff on the market should be about ones ability to find lucrative items and negotiate prices (more like an auction house).

In real life how many companies and traders are changing their prices 1 cent 50 times a day ?

Three times I tried to stay in the station trading game and even though I found good items I just didn't had the time and will to play the 0,01 ISK game for too long. No wonder that people use bots as this is the most boring 'activity' you can have.

Please don't take it as a rant, like " OMG this **** bores me so it must be stuuuupid and who ever does it is a no lifer".




I have found that on 0.01 items (usually high volume, low margin), the price changes very little due to the frequency of trades, so you can go away, come back later, and stuff will have filled. Worst case scenario, I have to update by a few isk.... usually overnight my prices change by less than 10 isk, and most of the orders have at least partially fill.

Other items, which are equally high volume, but sold in bulk, tend to turn up in fits and starts...some of my orders I havent had to update in 6 hours, which can be quite annoying.

Then you get the low volume, high margin items, which sell 3-5 a day, which rarely require updating.

You do not really need to do 0.01ing unless a) you are bored and sitting at the screen with no other clients open and no chat windows, b) are really impatient and need to double your isk fairly fast.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

YuuKnow
The Scope
#28 - 2013-03-27 06:28:52 UTC
Oki Troom wrote:
Even the recently implemented email alert system


On a side note. What is this email alert system?

yk
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
Train Wreck.
#29 - 2013-03-27 07:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
http://www.evementat.com/

is a good one, There are a few good bots out there too that are legal as long as you set them up propperly and do not automate via the eve client. you just have click the market order and the bot will do the rest outside of the client such as give you a 0.1 isk best price or bul buy depending on what you've set up in your spread sheet price.
Oki Troom
The Dissolute
#30 - 2013-03-27 11:13:57 UTC
YuuKnow wrote:
Oki Troom wrote:
Even the recently implemented email alert system


On a side note. What is this email alert system?

yk


http://eveorderwatcher.com/
Maxpie
MUSE LLP
RAZOR Alliance
#31 - 2013-03-27 12:56:30 UTC
Hmm, a lot of bot deniers in this thread. We know bots exist. A simple google tells us this. Now why are people trying to point attention away from botting? I wonder...

No good deed goes unpunished
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#32 - 2013-03-27 13:25:54 UTC
Maxpie wrote:
Hmm, a lot of bot deniers in this thread. We know bots exist. A simple google tells us this. Now why are people trying to point attention away from botting? I wonder...


I dont think anyone is saying bots dont exist, (nor do I see anyone in this thread saying there are no bots)...however, there is a difference between "A small % of people use bots" (Like with the eve uni drama earlier this year), and "There are bots under every bed" (As in the "Bots are out of control!" statements)

I see it as this...how do you know someone is updating all the time unless you are checking all the time too...if you are checking and updating, chances are other people are too. If you think you have come up with some awesome scheme to change price which no one will figure out, then chances are, other people have figured it out.

The common tactic of "anyone who denies there is an enormous problem with bots, whereby the majority of the people in the market are botters, must be using a bot themselves" is similar to "That guy is using hacks!!" in other games....

That there are botters in eve != every miner or trader is running a bot.

Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Mu-Shi Ai
Hosono House
#33 - 2013-03-27 13:27:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mu-Shi Ai
Maxpie wrote:
Hmm, a lot of bot deniers in this thread. We know bots exist. A simple google tells us this. Now why are people trying to point attention away from botting? I wonder...


Because being undercut quickly in a hub with 1500 other traders in it is not evidence that your opponents are botters?

Seriously. All you have to do in order to appear to be a botter is create 3 or 4 separate orders for the same item and update them on a rotating basis as you get outbid. I know it sounds completely outlandish that somebody would sit there all day long and do such a thing, but there are people who do that. They literally have nothing better to do, so they just update orders incessantly. And the reason why people such as yourself believe they are botters is because, ultimately, it's comforting to believe in that idea. Rather than strain your intellect by seeking out other ways to make money which don't have you competing with market obsessives, you stroll over to MD and complain to CCP about bots.

Let me make it crystal clear: there are market bots in EVE. The thing is, you are far less likely to encounter a market bot than you are to encounter another player who simply has more time on his hands, and more of a singleminded obsession with updating orders, than you. Simply being outbid is not, in itself, evidence that you are competing against a bot.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#34 - 2013-03-27 14:01:36 UTC
Lux Imperator wrote:
The 0,01 thing is the most annoying mechanic you can find in an MMO these days.
Selling stuff on the market should be about ones ability to find lucrative items and negotiate prices (more like an auction house).

In real life how many companies and traders are changing their prices 1 cent 50 times a day ?


RL has the concept of loss. Even if EvE also tends to give a feeling of meaningful loss, it's still much less dramatic than seeing your account rapidly going to zero after having hard worked for 1 year to fill it.

In RL you can change an order 5000 times... a minute if you want and unlike EvE it's free, it won't even cost the equivalent of 100 ISK.

Yet in RL, 85-95% of the traders lose their money, in EvE even the worst baddie cannot lose his pants and have to go gather coke cans outside the supermarkets.

In RL a retail trader (not talking about institutions) cannot just buy from buy orders and flip on sell orders. The spread are usually a fraction of dollar while the broker fee to open a position is 3-6 dollars and then again to close it.
This means that not any noob can just buy and flip, they also have to somewhat predict where price will move so they can at least cover the transaction costs. This already makes RL trading substantially less 0.01 ISKer friendly than EvE.

Then there's the velocity factor. Even trading Tritanium, you will see your order sitting there, then after 3-4 minutes (if not outbid) somebody might take it or it might sit there another 10 minutes.

In GW2 like in RL, instead, there are no "order update cooldowns", so price is ever moving, your buy order could get taken in 2 seconds and then price move quickly against you in the next 10 seconds and keep going worse afterwards.

All these factors make EvE station trading very simplicistic, to the point it's not classic trading but more of a "time sharing" experiece: you get 10 guys 0.01 ISKing each other and the statistic result is that each of them will have shared 1/10 of the "best order exposure" time and thus 1/10 the chance to be the one getting their order filled.

Had they been RL trading, they'd not get a "fair" and visible share of time, as some of them would get instantly filled, others never. So most resort to "pending orders" and thus have to more or less know how price works and behaves. In EvE this knowledge is not required, you know that you WILL get your order filled if you keep 0.01 ISKing enough.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-03-27 14:04:54 UTC
Stonkeep wrote:
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.

Live and learn!!

I'm not sure if that is what I would believe that.

In this thread (about an EVE University player who got banned for botting) CCP Sreegs seems to be saying that using 3rd party software to update market orders faster than is humanly possible is against the EULA. But, I don't know how vigorously CCP enforces this.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601499#post2601499

and

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601589#post2601589

In fact, reading that thread in its entirety would be enlightening.

But, at the moment, I don't know how much of a priority market bots are to CCP so your mileage will differ.
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
#36 - 2013-03-27 15:42:18 UTC
Mu-Shi Ai wrote:

Let me make it crystal clear: there are market bots in EVE. The thing is, you are far less likely to encounter a market bot than you are to encounter another player who simply has more time on his hands, and more of a singleminded obsession with updating orders, than you. Simply being outbid is not, in itself, evidence that you are competing against a bot.


Altho, I agree with you, I don't think this is completely right. Yes, perhaps only 1-3% of all traders use bots and even tho it is a very low number the effect of these bots quite larger than that. Simply put a bot will have an extremely high uptime on the orders window thus effecting the market in a much much larger way. If any normal trader can fill 1/10 of their orders a bot can 5/10 or higher than that.

I can most of the time tell if the person I am market pvping against is a bot or not. There are a lot of ways to do this. I do get annoyed when I get outbid but it is extremely frustrated when I know that it is done by a bot. I already explained how you can detect if a bid is made a by a bot or not.

As it was discussed in this thread, these 3rd party software programs considered "legit" so they might not be considered a bot by some.





Fractal Muse wrote:
Stonkeep wrote:
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.

Live and learn!!

I'm not sure if that is what I would believe that.

In this thread (about an EVE University player who got banned for botting) CCP Sreegs seems to be saying that using 3rd party software to update market orders faster than is humanly possible is against the EULA. But, I don't know how vigorously CCP enforces this.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601499#post2601499

and

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601589#post2601589

In fact, reading that thread in its entirety would be enlightening.

But, at the moment, I don't know how much of a priority market bots are to CCP so your mileage will differ.


That is a great post actually and it proves what we have been discussing here. CCP does not touch you unless you go big. They guy who was banned had 317billion in his account. Now that is a quite large amount of ISK and it got noticed by CCP after all it was done.

Like some others already said here, CCP will not touch you unless you bot hardcore and you will not be touched much if you use 3rd party "legit" sofware. I know there is at least 1 of these in Amarr and after so many reports he is still there and does not seem to be going anywhere.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#37 - 2013-03-27 16:19:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
I would call station trading bots a surprisingly minor issue in the Eve universe.

Station trading in itself has always been a third party cancer on the market between the industry and the consumer so I have no sympathy for them if they have to spend all day symbolically undercutting each other by one isk on every order.

I oppose station bots on a moral level. I just don't feel too sorry for the traders.


Sort of like the mining bots. Good for the consumer. Bad on principle.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.

Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
Train Wreck.
#38 - 2013-03-27 16:24:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Brewlar Kuvakei
Fractal Muse wrote:
Stonkeep wrote:
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.

Live and learn!!

I'm not sure if that is what I would believe that.

In this thread (about an EVE University player who got banned for botting) CCP Sreegs seems to be saying that using 3rd party software to update market orders faster than is humanly possible is against the EULA. But, I don't know how vigorously CCP enforces this.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601499#post2601499

and

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601589#post2601589

In fact, reading that thread in its entirety would be enlightening.

But, at the moment, I don't know how much of a priority market bots are to CCP so your mileage will differ.


Programs that allow users to multi box 10 miner or ratter accounts are allowing players to mine rocks faster than humanly possible. A program or script that allows me to change buy orders and sell orders 10's and 100's of times per minute is also allowed. I've even petitioned this and had it confirmed it's ok. You are just not allowed automation within the eve client, outside of the client is fine.

For example all these lotterys that are running use scripts but the eve client side is supposed to be non automated.

Just ask Stormbringer999s I caught one of his macro's going haywire and purchasing over 50 seperate buy orders in under 2 mins. That is simply not humanly possible. I'd like to market trade with out a macro but since they are allowed it's the only sensible way to do so.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#39 - 2013-03-27 16:54:24 UTC
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
I would call station trading bots a surprisingly minor issue in the Eve universe.

Station trading in itself has always been a third party cancer on the market between the industry and the consumer so I have no sympathy for them if they have to spend all day symbolically undercutting each other by one isk on every order.

I oppose station bots on a moral level. I just don't feel too sorry for the traders.


Sort of like the mining bots. Good for the consumer. Bad on principle.


What you call "third party cancer" is at the foundation of any liquid market and the reason why markets self-optimize and self reduce spreads to the minimum allowed by their average traded volume.

In RL when these "third party cancers" miss, exchanges have to pay specialty companies called liquidity providers to provide traders a viable working environment.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#40 - 2013-03-27 17:11:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Angelique Duchemin
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
I would call station trading bots a surprisingly minor issue in the Eve universe.

Station trading in itself has always been a third party cancer on the market between the industry and the consumer so I have no sympathy for them if they have to spend all day symbolically undercutting each other by one isk on every order.

I oppose station bots on a moral level. I just don't feel too sorry for the traders.


Sort of like the mining bots. Good for the consumer. Bad on principle.


What you call "third party cancer" is at the foundation of any liquid market and the reason why markets self-optimize and self reduce spreads to the minimum allowed by their average traded volume.

In RL when these "third party cancers" miss, exchanges have to pay specialty companies called liquidity providers to provide traders a viable working environment.



I'd accept that if there weren't 1500 of you sitting in the same station buying up and reselling the same things that the miner just dropped off.

All those billions that are generated in between the industry and the consumer weren't spun out of thin air.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.