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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Congratulations to the Federation Navy for their victory against tyranny

Author
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#81 - 2013-03-25 09:36:09 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
Alex, you're repeating history but not thinking about it. In so doing, you didn't actually address my point. Duvalier and the Senators who voted to make him president and supported him throughout his administration had, nevertheless, been democratically voted into office.

If people didn't want a president and senate who would vote to suspend the constitution and declare martial law, then they should never have allowed those people to be in a position to do so.

The citizens of the democracy actively chose these people to make decisions on their behalf. At best, that means that they failed in their duty to seriously evaluate the candidates and try to determine what sort of person they were electing to representing them. At worst, it means they actively endorsed and agreed with that kind of person. The largest minority (or possibly the majority) of voters were either apathetically lazy and easily-swayed, or co-conspirators.

All this "three pillars" stuff doesn't change the basic concept that the person who gets the job is the one with the most votes.

People don't suddenly go from being upstanding paragons of morality to baying for blood overnight. Those politicians didn't undergo a rapid and instant 180 the second the flooding hit NR - people don't work that way. What happened was that the hard-liners, the tough-talkers, the conservatives and the outspoken blowhard patriotic hawks went into overdrive while the liberals, bridge-builders, progressive, empathic doves were forced to do some soul-searching and question-asking in a moment of weakness that made them go quiet and by the time they thought to speak up again it was too late.

The Federation collectively endorsed - or at least enabled - the candidates whose policies and opinions contained the seeds of that extremism. Three pillars or not, they were elected by popular vote.


I did think about it, and I did answer your questions, though perhaps insufficiently well.

You asked if I believe democracy works and stated that if I believed it does then I would have to acknowledge it's flaws. I did, I went for option two, because option two was the only true one among them. Democracy works, but it has never been a perfect system - I have never been naive enough to believe this - but it's negative aspects are at least balanced with it's positive ones. Democracy itself is morally silent. Democracy does not have any say in what the utilizers of it's system does. This is why the more modern Three Pillars system is vital, it keeps things balanced between Senate, Supreme Court and the office of the President. This ensures fairness and that all presidents are voted for DIRECTLY by the individual people themselves, regardless of nationality or origin.

This is how it works today.

My point with bringing up the divide between the old and the newer systems was to highlight the absolute weakness of the old one. Those senators who voted to let Luc Duvailer become president and Duvailer's previous position as party chairman was indeed voted into office.

Several months to years before the State was founded and the crisis even began.

Duvailer had his supporters, there were many who believed as he did and his position as chairman of the GoG party proved this. But once he and the Senators of the time was in office the reasons why they were placed there were nearly irrelevant - they were the ones who would chose the president, and the president would make the over-arching decisions. This created a divide in power - the people may have chosen all the senators, but none of them had any say in who became president, thus his actions were not directly endorsed by anyone among the average citizens.

The citizens did not ask for the Constitution and Charter to be suspended, that action basically set aside the whole democratic system because they felt they needed to take action swiftly, and could not wait for the time-consuming democratic process to run it's course. That's a weakness of democracy - it takes time to codify what actions are preferred by the most people.

But that also meant that once Duvailer was in office the people no longer had any say in what anyone in the upper echelon of Federal power did - and once martial law was in place, none of them could even protest about this without fear of imprisonment or death.

Once again, I believe that democracy works. We have had extensive history in identifying it's weaknesses and making corrections for them. But it was not always so, and the point I'm trying to make is that once Duvailer was in power two centuries ago, what the people wanted or believed was no longer relevant to anyone in power and for that reason, stating that their actions - among them the bombardment of Caldari Prime - had popular support is debatable at best, out-right wrong at worst.

Finally however I would note that I can see where your point of view is coming from. This topic and all the various aspects of it has been debated in this Federation for the better parts of two hundred years by now. You and me conversing about this is nothing new. That you, as Caldari and a supporter of your State disagree with me is absolutely nothing new either.

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#82 - 2013-03-25 12:10:40 UTC
We're going to keep going in circles here, I can tell. I'll repeat my core point again then leave well enough alone if you don't mind.

Quote:
The citizens did not ask for the Constitution and Charter to be suspended


I am saying that yes they effectively did because they elected the kind of people who would do that, either out of ignorance or out of agreement.

passive and active culpability are culpability nevertheless.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-03-25 12:44:07 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
We're going to keep going in circles here, I can tell. I'll repeat my core point again then leave well enough alone if you don't mind.

Quote:
The citizens did not ask for the Constitution and Charter to be suspended


I am saying that yes they effectively did because they elected the kind of people who would do that, either out of ignorance or out of agreement.

passive and active culpability are culpability nevertheless.


First, allow me to state that I understand your point of view and agree with the summary of the viewpoint in principle.

I would state, however, that it is impossible to know the actions your leaders will take in dire situations. The populace may have voted in leaders that would do that action, that doesn't necessarily mean they agreed with that specific action.

I do understand your point regarding their culpability, however.
Toluijin Chagangan
Doomheim
#84 - 2013-03-25 14:02:46 UTC
Markus Reese wrote:
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:
This might be off topic, but this has been bugging me for some time.

It truly saddens me to see so many Caldari abandoning the wayist beliefs of their ancestors.


Seven Tribes.
One Matari People.


What beliefs? We believe in ourselves. Hardwork and strength. Anything else simply detracts from survival. Of the four empires, Caldari have the most inhospitable home planet.

The fertile systems of the minmatar homes, the luxurious climate of Gallente Prime, The Amarr did not suffer the technological dark age the same extent as the rest of us.

Even to this day, Caldari Prime is difficult to habitate. I am not supporting the actions of those that sabotaged Novelle Ruvenor. Caldari records of the events are sketchy. We were more concerned with our survival. Was there greater motive behind the terrorist attacks? We know the gallente were extremist in their militay doctrine of the day. Perhaps there was more to the city than is let on. After all, when the gallente took our cities, they took all the info contained within as well.


In particular Markus, The Spiritual beliefs that were born of Caldari prime.

also known as The Way of the Winds, these beliefs are often referred to simply as 'wayism' or 'wayist beliefs'

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality

The beliefs of your ancestors show some remarkable similarities to those of my own.
As I say, It saddens me to see so many turn away from them and towards the Amarrian faith.

That you are ignorant of the existence of your own people's historical spirituality speaks volumes on this subject.


Seven Tribes
One Matari People.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#85 - 2013-03-25 14:45:27 UTC
Toluijin Chagangan wrote:

In particular Markus, The Spiritual beliefs that were born of Caldari prime.

also known as The Way of the Winds, these beliefs are often referred to simply as 'wayism' or 'wayist beliefs'

http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari_spirituality

The beliefs of your ancestors show some remarkable similarities to those of my own.
As I say, It saddens me to see so many turn away from them and towards the Amarrian faith.

That you are ignorant of the existence of your own people's historical spirituality speaks volumes on this subject.


Many of us do still follow that braided path;

Many more of us follow it without realizing it so.

It is as much our culture as it is our faith.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#86 - 2013-03-26 23:09:53 UTC
Stitcher wrote:
We're going to keep going in circles here, I can tell. I'll repeat my core point again then leave well enough alone if you don't mind.

Quote:
The citizens did not ask for the Constitution and Charter to be suspended


I am saying that yes they effectively did because they elected the kind of people who would do that, either out of ignorance or out of agreement.

passive and active culpability are culpability nevertheless.


We will have to agree to disagree then, much like I expected.

For the sake of fairness, I will leave my own core point here as well and move on.

The Senators faced with such a unique issue was voted into office months or years before the crisis began. No-one, not even themselves could have foreseen or known what was going to take place, or that the people's rights would soon be nullified.

Not one single man or woman voted directly for the president that bombed Caldari Prime.
Kirjava
Lothian Enterprises
#87 - 2013-03-27 00:47:30 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:

There are no winners today, no victors. Everyone involved lost something precious, even if they don't realize it just yet.


Heth won.
I shudder to think how long the recruitment lines must be for the Caldari Navy, how the furnaces light up around the clock gearing up for Total War.

The Homeworld was liberated, held for a time and lost.

The distant dream of a Civilisation, home, was in its grasp for an instant.

This brings War. Total, unstoppable unyielding war till only one side remains.

Gods have mercy on us all.

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