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[Odyssey] Module Rebalancing Part One: RSBs and TEs

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PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#41 - 2013-03-26 22:06:50 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
Beaver Retriever wrote:
PinkKnife wrote:
This hurts Minmatar more than Gallente because Gal almost always have the free mids to run a Tracking Computer, thus your Talos and Megathron will be fine assuming you aren't shield tanking them.

It's a nerf to shield ships with free lows, I.e. Canes, and it is ENTIRELY needed. Oh no Projectiles won't dominate in every single possible way anymore, they only get to still pick damage type, use no cap, and have the highest alpha of any turret. Yes, poor Projectiles.

The Blaster boats won't suffer, and the Minmatar's ability to kite at any distance and still be able to hit fully will be nerfed. It is about time. Thank you Fozzie.

The userbase can deal with flying ships with risk. Currently the same userbase flies almost exclusive caldari/minmatar because you can kite out, apply all your dps, and risk nothing in the engagement. See Drake, See Hurricane for further examples.

Literally no one armor tanks their Talos.



Which exactly proves my point, the reason being you HAVE to shield tank everything these days, and the current TE exacerbate this problem. You shouldn't get to have all of your tank, plus all of your gank. Trade offs and decisions, considerations, and drawbacks.

The problem that you HAVE to shield tank a Talos, proves the issue. You have to be able to keep up/kite otherwise you lose, as Canes and other ships can apply their dps well within/outside scram range and there isn't **** you can do about it if you are slower than they are.

It is a side buff to armor ships, and it is fantastic.

If you're shield tanking your armor ships, you're gonna have a bad time. Well you should anyway.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2013-03-26 22:07:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Roderick Grey wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
With Blasters hurting for range as it is are CCP sure it's a good idea to further damage Gallente ships, which already suffer drawbacks just to nerf Minmatar superiority?

Perhaps with weapon damage upgrades being Race specific, we could have race-specific Tracking Enhancers each with their own varying buffs aswell?


Lol wat?
Stop trying to kite in a Thorax hull then.

As someone who predominately flies Gallente, I can only think of Talos & terrible kiting Thorax hulls as the ships that routinely fit TEs. Gallente is the best it's been in a long time, and this nerf to TEs just means people are going to be closer to blaster range Blink


If you're fighting outnumbered being in scram-range isn't always a good thing.


Perhaps you should start looking into Caldari blaster boats then.
Ferox has outperformed the Brutix when it comes to range since the beginning of time, and even moreso since the rebalance. The only reason the Brutix is still used so much for ganking is because the drones inflate the damage numbers so much. Heck, even the Moa outperforms the Thorax in most arenas.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#43 - 2013-03-26 22:07:30 UTC
rsb nerf is nice

nerfing te's though is not a good change. This will make almost any gang shield ship severely nerfed, given that almost all of them rely on te's to have any hope to work properly. This is not a change that I would look forward to or would offer a particularly good fix to anything really. The reason that it has always traditionally been acceptale that shield ships have greater range via te's is because they have less tank and less ewar. This just makes it so that when you role in armor you will not be out-kited by faster, less tankier ships and those ships will have to come and fight within your optimals. It just does not make sense why anyone would willingly want to fly shield ships after the heavy bonuses/nerfs that they have been getting.

They recently got t2 plates
Then armour honeycombing made them far less slow
Now they will be able to operate in the same general range as shield ships, but with the bonus of having more tank, stronger force multipliers, (loki/proteus vs huggin/lachesis), and more midslots potentially for ewar such as td's and damps

This will also be a pretty siable buff for td's given the greatly shortened range this will give shield ships.

This really is a bad, bad idea.
Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2013-03-26 22:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Roderick Grey
KwarK uK wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Out of curiosity, in what class does minmatar currently dominate?

Ill give that the sleipnir is the best CS, the vaga is the best shield hac. and maybe artynados are the best tr3 for blobbing (although nagas are probably better).

This is a very small number of classes


Hurricanes -Were- the king of battlecruisers Tempests are still the best battleship against Supers/carriers in the game, phoons are arguably the best battleship firewall, Cynabal (Yes it's Min/Gallente but it uses projectiles) and the SFI are the most deadly cruisers for small gang and skirmish warfare, the Arty wolf is a solo pvp ship many players swear by as one of, if not the most viable ship for frigate 1v1s, Talwars are an up-and-coming doctrine for 20-50 man fleets, thrashers have always been a popular first choice for newby pvpers and FW veterans alike.

And let's not forget the macherial.

Caracals beat SFIs pretty handily these days, were is the correct word regarding canes which are now obsolete, nobody anywhere is using pest doctrines vs carriers because slowcat blobs are just better, the artywolf is comparable to the slicer and also uses arties which TEs aren't so relevant to (because of the longer optimal), the talwar doesn't even use projectiles, thrashers aren't fit with TEs generally. The cynabal is good largely because of its insane fitting, speed, agility and drone bay, it doesn't especially rely on TEs.

The winmatar complaints are a year out of date now.


I'd really like to see your Caracal fit that can either out brawl or kite an SFI pilot, I'm not talking about pests vs slowcats, there are other kinds of carrier fits which the Tempest counters very well (Triage). The question was what did Minmatar dominate at class-wise, not what went well with TEs, not sure why you're arguing that with me.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#45 - 2013-03-26 22:09:06 UTC
I like the proposed changes.

HAVE MY BABIES CCP _ ALL OF YOU!
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2013-03-26 22:10:37 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
KwarK uK wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Out of curiosity, in what class does minmatar currently dominate?

Ill give that the sleipnir is the best CS, the vaga is the best shield hac. and maybe artynados are the best tr3 for blobbing (although nagas are probably better).

This is a very small number of classes


Hurricanes -Were- the king of battlecruisers Tempests are still the best battleship against Supers/carriers in the game, phoons are arguably the best battleship firewall, Cynabal (Yes it's Min/Gallente but it uses projectiles) and the SFI are the most deadly cruisers for small gang and skirmish warfare, the Arty wolf is a solo pvp ship many players swear by as one of, if not the most viable ship for frigate 1v1s, Talwars are an up-and-coming doctrine for 20-50 man fleets, thrashers have always been a popular first choice for newby pvpers and FW veterans alike.

And let's not forget the macherial.

Caracals beat SFIs pretty handily these days, were is the correct word regarding canes which are now obsolete, nobody anywhere is using pest doctrines vs carriers because slowcat blobs are just better, the artywolf is comparable to the slicer and also uses arties which TEs aren't so relevant to (because of the longer optimal), the talwar doesn't even use projectiles, thrashers aren't fit with TEs generally. The cynabal is good largely because of its insane fitting, speed, agility and drone bay, it doesn't especially rely on TEs.

The winmatar complaints are a year out of date now.


I'd really like to see your Caracal fit that can either out brawl or kite an SFI pilot, I'm not talking about pests vs slowcats, there are other kinds of carrier fits which the Tempest counters very well (Triage). The question was what did Minmatar dominate at class-wise, not what went well with TEs, not I'm not sure why you're arguing that with me.


Tempests do not counter triage very well, because they will all die against the either rokhs/hellcats/napocs that the triage is supporting by the time they kill the triage.
Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2013-03-26 22:12:20 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Beaver Retriever wrote:

Literally no one armor tanks their Talos.



Which exactly proves my point, the reason being you HAVE to shield tank everything these days, and the current TE exacerbate this problem. You shouldn't not get to have all of your tank, plus all of your gank. Trade offs and decisions, considerations, and drawbacks.

The problem that you HAVE to shield tank a Talos, proves the issue, in that you have to be able to keep up/kite otherwise you lose, as Canes and other ships can apply their dps well within/outside scram range and there isn't **** you can do about it if you are slower than they are.

It is a side buff to armor ships, and it is fantastic.


Making a ship bad at something doesn't make it better at something else, it's not a "side buff" it's a nerf.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#48 - 2013-03-26 22:12:23 UTC
Lelob wrote:
rsb nerf is nice

nerfing te's though is not a good change. This will make almost any gang shield ship severely nerfed, given that almost all of them rely on te's to have any hope to work properly. This is not a change that I would look forward to or would offer a particularly good fix to anything really. The reason that it has always traditionally been acceptale that shield ships have greater range via te's is because they have less tank and less ewar. This just makes it so that when you role in armor you will not be out-kited by faster, less tankier ships and those ships will have to come and fight within your optimals. It just does not make sense why anyone would willingly want to fly shield ships after the heavy bonuses/nerfs that they have been getting.

They recently got t2 plates
Then armour honeycombing made them far less slow
Now they will be able to operate in the same general range as shield ships, but with the bonus of having more tank, stronger force multipliers, (loki/proteus vs huggin/lachesis), and more midslots potentially for ewar such as td's and damps

This will also be a pretty siable buff for td's given the greatly shortened range this will give shield ships.

This really is a bad, bad idea.

Yeah, like 10 m/s faster with a 1600mm plate at lvl 5.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#49 - 2013-03-26 22:15:51 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

I'm not talking about pests vs slowcats, there are other kinds of carrier fits which the Tempest counters very well (Triage).


Tempests do not counter triage very well, because they will all die against the either rokhs/hellcats/napocs that the triage is supporting by the time they kill the triage.


You have a point there, I suppose I'll have to withdraw my previous claim and settle on their use as "Gank" battleships vs carriers/supers.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#50 - 2013-03-26 22:18:11 UTC
Posting in the downfall of Minmatar thread, many of their ships were defined by the shield tank + neuts + TEs in low kiting approach.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#51 - 2013-03-26 22:19:17 UTC
a 33% nerf seems a little harsh to me. i don't have any numbers but my feeling is that 25% would have achieved what you want, the other 8% are just to upset mach pilots.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Lelob
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2013-03-26 22:21:14 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
a 33% nerf seems a little harsh to me. i don't have any numbers but my feeling is that 25% would have achieved what you want, the other 8% are just to upset mach pilots.


TBH this just makes it easier for armor machs. (Yes, they're pretty good)
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#53 - 2013-03-26 22:22:00 UTC
Lelob wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
a 33% nerf seems a little harsh to me. i don't have any numbers but my feeling is that 25% would have achieved what you want, the other 8% are just to upset mach pilots.


TBH this just makes it easier for armor machs. (Yes, they're pretty good)


cough
Gnoshia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2013-03-26 22:22:37 UTC
As a heavy missile user I can say one thing to the minnie pilots whining: Feel my pain. FEEL MY PAIN. TAKE IT
June Ting
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#55 - 2013-03-26 22:22:56 UTC
While you're looking, can you look into making remote tracking links provide a greater bonus than local links rather than the same exact bonus? >.<

I fight for the freedom of my people.
Zircon Dasher
#56 - 2013-03-26 22:27:16 UTC
Its nice to see CCP willing to shake things up.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#57 - 2013-03-26 22:31:10 UTC
AWESOME!

I'm really suprised it took you that long, though Cool

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#58 - 2013-03-26 22:37:54 UTC
While I agree with the remote sensor booster nerf, are there any plans for nerfing the cloak warp trick so often abused in lowsec? I'm getting kinda tired of missing out on all those solo navy battleships that are practically invincible, even without any support.
Janeway84
Insane's Asylum
#59 - 2013-03-26 22:37:56 UTC
Yo Fozzie when you going to make some magnetic field stabilizers and gyrostabs and heat sinks got little different graphics on the icons for the modules?
Would be nice to be able to tell them apart on a quick glance when you fitting a new ship in a rush Blink


maybe have the three arrows on the icon have a different color for each weapon type? Could be subtle like that or color code them n crap. I dunno.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2013-03-26 22:41:11 UTC
Grarr Dexx wrote:
While I agree with the remote sensor booster nerf, are there any plans for nerfing the cloak warp trick so often abused in lowsec? I'm getting kinda tired of missing out on all those solo navy battleships that are practically invincible, even without any support.

Learn to decloak.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)