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Mach Vs. Navy Domi
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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#1 - 2013-03-26 12:34:18 UTC
usually, i am the one answering questions on here but this time i would like to hear some of your experiences. The question is: how does the Navynix perform in lvl4s compared to a machariel? We assume perfect conditions for both ships (perfect skills, implants, Machariel flies against angels, Domi against serpentis, MJD etc.), which one would you prefer and why?

I should buy an Ishtar.
Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
#2 - 2013-03-26 13:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerath Naaris
Daniel Plain wrote:
usually, i am the one answering questions on here but this time i would like to hear some of your experiences. The question is: how does the Navynix perform in lvl4s compared to a machariel? We assume perfect conditions for both ships (perfect skills, implants, Machariel flies against angels, Domi against serpentis, MJD etc.), which one would you prefer and why?


I have flown both a Mach and a Navi Shield Domi in countless missions (though not entirely under your "perfect conditions" but quite close) and the Mach definitely won out:
Better range (especially in regard to Gallente sentries), more DPS, no Cap problems, better speed (in case the next acc gate was far away; this might be different/inconclusive with an MJD, though) and better tank (even when sitting at zero speed with the Mach.... any incoming DPS gets reduced so quick almost to the point of one no longer needing to worry about triggers anymore).
Only thing the Domi excelled was killing annoying frigs that got under the guns but I solved this one by ungrouping my ACs and killing them them first.

Another thing - though not directly related to the mission itself - is the awesome ability of the Mach to align... if you have flown a Mach for some time flying a Domi feels like riding a beached whale.

Ah, and no Drone micromanagement; that´s unbelievable liberating!


Hope that helps somewhat.

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Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#3 - 2013-03-26 14:17:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Plain
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#4 - 2013-03-26 14:26:08 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.


mach can also drop 4 sentries once you're done speedtanking.

Some first-hand PI tips
Lenier Chenal
Offensive Upholder
#5 - 2013-03-26 14:27:27 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.


Your DPS in a domi should be almost entirely drones.

Also, bouncers are amazing for reaching out and hitting ****.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-03-26 14:29:20 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.


This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#7 - 2013-03-26 14:31:02 UTC
Rails are fixed damage types, and you either go 5 gun, or you have a shortened drone control range, and mach can move to the next gate whilst doing full dps. Domi can in some circumstances (ie where stuff spawned up close enough to use mobile drones), but its inconsistent. So not only is it a bit of a slug to align and move, its sometimes stuck with its drones too.

On the flipside I'd prefer a domi for ewar heavy missions. It doesn't get shut down, and cap boosted armor fits have many slots for counterfitting ewar, so you usually keep your locks and tracking anyway.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-03-26 14:31:58 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.


This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.

this is why i asked in the first place instead of relying on just eft numbers. also, thank you all for the feedback.

I should buy an Ishtar.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-03-26 15:01:05 UTC
Daniel Plain wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.


This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.

this is why i asked in the first place instead of relying on just eft numbers. also, thank you all for the feedback.


Alright, serious answer:

Mach > Domi by far, assuming good skills on both.

AC is far better than rails. Dps is higher. Gunnery hardwiring also have a larger effect. There aren't any drone implants yet.

Staying with sentries is a big pain for missions with far gates. Mach is faster, MJD is hard and impractical for gate travel, and snipe means gimpy dps.

Tracking matters. AC Machs can be moving and still hit perfectly on BS rats 10km away, cruisers 20 km away, or frigs 35km away. Rails can't hit much on the move.

Mach is dmg selectable, for all of its dps. Although there's no good AC kinetic ammo. You're stuck with heat. So you'll notice significantly lower dps on kinetic rats than others. EM rats get hit just as hard as Angel, so Mach isn't just against Angel rats. All rats should die long before they approach anywhere close to Angel orbit, so that's a nonfactor. Don't worry about rat lasers, between speed and gank, you won't need much tank.

Falloff curve:
~80% dps at 50% falloff, ~50% dps at 100% falloff. Cookie cutter Mach should have ~75km falloff.
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/File:Falloff.png
Hakaimono
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2013-03-26 15:17:45 UTC
I wouldn't risk a Mach in lowsec missions, but the DNI is an acceptable risk imo. For highsec, Mach all the way.
Baggo Hammers
#11 - 2013-03-26 17:01:03 UTC
Having flown both a lot, it ends up being a playstyle issue. I prefer a MWD Mach zipping about to a more or less stationary Navy Domi using a MJD and sentries. They both complete most L4s in about the same time.

If you don't know where you're going, any road will take you there.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#12 - 2013-03-27 08:56:05 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.


Funny. This is what I think every time I see Sheeple#0874 spouting about how awesome the Mach's DPS is, and then going on to try telling me about 1k+ DPS at 80km range. Once you take into effect falloff, a Machariel is lucky to be doing 350-400 DPS at that range. That's not to say that the Mach is bad. Just pointing out the EFT warrioring is the sole reason that it has a reputation as a pwnmobile... which it is not.

Machariel has the tracking and speed advantage.
NDomi has the DPS advantage.

Both are good ships for different situations. If I had to pick one and only one of them, it would be the Machariel (ugh). Although, with the TE nerf coming, I might re-consider.

Regardless, the Tachyon Nightmare has the Machariel beat (by a fair amount) at any range above about 25-30km.
Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#13 - 2013-03-27 11:15:15 UTC
If you're only going to be using 1 ship than the Mach is by far the better choice because mobility plays quite an important role in overall mission efficiency with missions that force you to gatecrawl/pick up mission items and also align times for travel. The NDomi can out dps the Mach and project better as well, but there are many missions where the above problems will kill your efficiency and the Machs advantages of selectable ammo types, mobility, tracking will beat it out. So you either have to own both, cherry pick missions, or Mach all the way.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-03-27 11:28:36 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Paikis wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.


Funny. This is what I think every time I see Sheeple#0874 spouting about how awesome the Mach's DPS is, and then going on to try telling me about 1k+ DPS at 80km range. Once you take into effect falloff, a Machariel is lucky to be doing 350-400 DPS at that range. That's not to say that the Mach is bad. Just pointing out the EFT warrioring is the sole reason that it has a reputation as a pwnmobile... which it is not.

Machariel has the tracking and speed advantage.
NDomi has the DPS advantage.

Both are good ships for different situations. If I had to pick one and only one of them, it would be the Machariel (ugh). Although, with the TE nerf coming, I might re-consider.

Regardless, the Tachyon Nightmare has the Machariel beat (by a fair amount) at any range above about 25-30km.


Learn the tracking curve, and yes, it's the same curve as falloff...Lol

And this is a big reason (but not the only one) your paper domi completion time can't compare to Mach. Dps lost to tracking, at closer distance, which for rails, are the typical mission rat spawn distances. You would've known, had you flown both instead of just EFTing them.Roll

Btw, funny thing is, at 100% falloff, you still do 50% dps. In other words, even at 80km, Mach does far higher dps than 350-400, and Domi whose Gardes don't reach, does less.

Oh, and for TEs, switch to TCs and script them. You don't need the 9% extra tracking from TEs anyway, ACs track well enough already. TE optimal's cut by 33% too, so same goes for all other boats with guns, including your rail Domi, not just Mach. The only difference is, your rail tracking will suffer.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-03-27 11:47:49 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Btw, funny thing is, at 100% falloff, you still do 50% dps.

funnily enough, your own graph shows that it's actually 40% not 50%

I should buy an Ishtar.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#16 - 2013-03-27 12:39:52 UTC
Paikis wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.


Funny. This is what I think every time I see Sheeple#0874 spouting about how awesome the Mach's DPS is, and then going on to try telling me about 1k+ DPS at 80km range. Once you take into effect falloff, a Machariel is lucky to be doing 350-400 DPS at that range. That's not to say that the Mach is bad. Just pointing out the EFT warrioring is the sole reason that it has a reputation as a pwnmobile... which it is not.

Machariel has the tracking and speed advantage.
NDomi has the DPS advantage.

Both are good ships for different situations. If I had to pick one and only one of them, it would be the Machariel (ugh). Although, with the TE nerf coming, I might re-consider.

Regardless, the Tachyon Nightmare has the Machariel beat (by a fair amount) at any range above about 25-30km.


Translation, I don't know much about Machariels.

The only place a nightmare beats a mach is in amarr/sansha/BR missions, and then only sometimes. I live in Blood Raider null sec and the nightmare can't hold a candle to a mach in anoms and exploration. And the mach is preferred in incursions (none of those nasty cap problems, some nightmare pilots make nightmare cap channels just because of this)

Even after the TP nerf and tiercide (the mach and the cynabal are slated for slight nerfing) I'd wager the mach will still be a better all around deathboat than the Nightmare. Reach of guns isn't the only thing that makes a good ship, its the combination of attributes.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#17 - 2013-03-27 12:53:13 UTC
sabre906 wrote:


Learn the tracking curve, and yes, it's the same curve as falloff...Lol

And this is a big reason (but not the only one) your paper domi completion time can't compare to Mach. Dps lost to tracking, at closer distance, which for rails, are the typical mission rat spawn distances. You would've known, had you flown both instead of just EFTing them.Roll

Btw, funny thing is, at 100% falloff, you still do 50% dps. In other words, even at 80km, Mach does far higher dps than 350-400, and Domi whose Gardes don't reach, does less.

Oh, and for TEs, switch to TCs and script them. You don't need the 9% extra tracking from TEs anyway, ACs track well enough already. TE optimal's cut by 33% too, so same goes for all other boats with guns, including your rail Domi, not just Mach. The only difference is, your rail tracking will suffer.


My armor dominix does 702 dps @ 84km - 350mm - spike L + warden IIs. It hits the wall at 84km due to drone control limit.

My shield navy domi does 841 dps @ 84km (5x425mm, navy iridium, warden IIs), and 839 dps @ 104km (its drone control limit). Most of the greater than 84km targets can be aggroed and let approach whilst closer targets are shot, ie superlong range is relatively unimportant in mission complete times anyway.

note I always use the rail/sentry config, but I'm sure if you really thought about it, you could find the 2-3 worst short range missions and use a 1600 dps blaster fit - there are a couple of such missions that are much fun in a blaster 'thron.

For missions with really messy transits to gates, you use the MJD fit - you may have to do 3 MJDs, and do them fairly early in the pocket to make sure its primed for the next pocket if required.

ie - I'd actually be suprised that if someone bought 2 navy domi hulls and a regular hull so they had lots of rig options that they'd either have spent more isk than the typical mach, or be much slower in practice and IMO the domi is still going to be better vs damps/jams.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#18 - 2013-03-27 14:44:12 UTC
Nerath Naaris wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
usually, i am the one answering questions on here but this time i would like to hear some of your experiences. The question is: how does the Navynix perform in lvl4s compared to a machariel? We assume perfect conditions for both ships (perfect skills, implants, Machariel flies against angels, Domi against serpentis, MJD etc.), which one would you prefer and why?


I have flown both a Mach and a Navi Shield Domi in countless missions (though not entirely under your "perfect conditions" but quite close) and the Mach definitely won out:
Better range (especially in regard to Gallente sentries), more DPS, no Cap problems, better speed (in case the next acc gate was far away; this might be different/inconclusive with an MJD, though) and better tank (even when sitting at zero speed with the Mach.... any incoming DPS gets reduced so quick almost to the point of one no longer needing to worry about triggers anymore).
Only thing the Domi excelled was killing annoying frigs that got under the guns but I solved this one by ungrouping my ACs and killing them them first.

Another thing - though not directly related to the mission itself - is the awesome ability of the Mach to align... if you have flown a Mach for some time flying a Domi feels like riding a beached whale.

Ah, and no Drone micromanagement; that´s unbelievable liberating!


Hope that helps somewhat.

same conclusion for me, for frigs, i let the drones do the job on the mach if they happen to go under 20km, for everything else, well, no need to tank, dead rats doesn't shoot anyway!
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-03-27 15:14:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Paikis wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.


Funny. This is what I think every time I see Sheeple#0874 spouting about how awesome the Mach's DPS is, and then going on to try telling me about 1k+ DPS at 80km range. Once you take into effect falloff, a Machariel is lucky to be doing 350-400 DPS at that range. That's not to say that the Mach is bad. Just pointing out the EFT warrioring is the sole reason that it has a reputation as a pwnmobile... which it is not.

Machariel has the tracking and speed advantage.
NDomi has the DPS advantage.

Both are good ships for different situations. If I had to pick one and only one of them, it would be the Machariel (ugh). Although, with the TE nerf coming, I might re-consider.

Regardless, the Tachyon Nightmare has the Machariel beat (by a fair amount) at any range above about 25-30km.


Translation, I don't know much about Machariels.

The only place a nightmare beats a mach is in amarr/sansha/BR missions, and then only sometimes. I live in Blood Raider null sec and the nightmare can't hold a candle to a mach in anoms and exploration. And the mach is preferred in incursions (none of those nasty cap problems, some nightmare pilots make nightmare cap channels just because of this)

Even after the TP nerf and tiercide (the mach and the cynabal are slated for slight nerfing) I'd wager the mach will still be a better all around deathboat than the Nightmare. Reach of guns isn't the only thing that makes a good ship, its the combination of attributes.


^this

Mach vs NM is a comparison.
Mach vs Domi is just...Roll

A more fitting comparison would be "drake vs Domi"
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#20 - 2013-03-27 16:50:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
sabre906 wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
it does actually. the only question i have is whether the machs dps are really that superior. my EFTfu tells me that a navy domi can get well over 1100 with t2 rails and DDA's etc, with better optimals than a mach, albeit worse falloff.


This is why you don't take advice from EFT warriors.


+1

Daniel,. EFT is like "DPS".

Dps can give you an idea of what will happen in game, but only a very broad idea because there are so many other factors. EFT can't really take every factor into consideration.

For a small example, look at a Tach Nightmare vs an Autocannon Mach (the 2 most common weapons set up for both ships). It would seem the nightmare would win all the time because much of the time it's nit firing in fall-off like the mach, so the machs raw dps advantage is lessened.

In (in-game) reality, the Nightmare suffers from "wasted dps" much more than the mach does. Sometimes it takes a nightmre more than 2-3 shots to kill a BS, the 3rd shot leaving the npc BS in hull. The 4th shot will kill that last 1 or 2 thousand points of structure, but the other 3-4 thousand points of damage the tachs would have done are "lost" (but the guns recycle time remains the same). This can be managed by micro managing ungrouped (or 2 groups of 2) guns, but it can't be totally eliminated.

The mach (and all ships) will lose some of this too, but since the mach is using fast firing damage over time weapons (unlike Tachs, which are alpha weapons) the lost damage affect is greatly lessened. Arty mach on the other hand is one of the worse ships for lost damage, hell , Arty anything really.

There are so many factors that impact success in game play, no tool like EFT is ever going to give more than just a general idea.
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