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Getting a carrier. Tell me how to not lose it.

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Solotta Erquilenne
#1 - 2013-03-25 16:02:41 UTC
Ship: Thanatos
Skills: Assume 4's in relevant carrier skills, capital module skills, no triage
Use: Traveling and moving ships through potentially hostile lowsec and npc nullsec
Cynos: Throwaway alt as well as falcon

-Is 2x capital rep, 2x faction EANM, dcu, capacitor power relay +3x CCC's still good for general purpose use? Should the CPR be an explosive hardener instead?

-The closest I expect to get to combat would be repping my own falcon on a station while the cyno finishes (only if the falcon gets attacked). Please explain how I might get killed doing this and how to avoid getting killed. If the falcon jams someone will the weapons timer be transferred to the carrier? Are titan drive-bys the only threat here or can a nyx kill a thanny before it can deagress?

-Kick out stations. How dangerous are these with the session-change timer being shorter than ever? I've heard you can kill velocity without breaking undock invulnerability, is getting bumped still a danger here? The Gallente Administrative station is the only one I know to be a kickout, but npc stations are more varied. Is there some list of station models to look up?

-Placing the cyno. I understand there's some art to this, with ships appearing within a 5km of the beacon. The risk is appearing outside docking radius or bouncing off station geometry. The exact sphere can be shown using the tactical overlay and a salvage module. Is this all basically correct?
Ginger Barbarella
#2 - 2013-03-25 16:10:40 UTC
If you have that much isk to waste without knowing what you're doing then by all means please donate your iskies to me. I await a flashing wallet.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Solotta Erquilenne
#3 - 2013-03-25 16:33:01 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
If you have that much isk to waste without knowing what you're doing then by all means please donate your iskies to me. I await a flashing wallet.


Did my post really come off as clueless? I was expecting something more like this: "If you know everything about it already then why are you making this thread?"

Also, its 2013. You are not in a secret club, and I am not asking how to rat or gatecamp.
Ginger Barbarella
#4 - 2013-03-25 16:41:03 UTC
Solotta Erquilenne wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
If you have that much isk to waste without knowing what you're doing then by all means please donate your iskies to me. I await a flashing wallet.


Did my post really come off as clueless? I was expecting something more like this: "If you know everything about it already then why are you making this thread?"

Also, its 2013. You are not in a secret club, and I am not asking how to rat or gatecamp.


No, you're asking about doing something that can be done quicker and a LOT cheaper than buying a carrier when you admittedly don't have the skills necessary to maximize what one can do. Once again, if you have the isk to waste, feel free to donate to me.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#5 - 2013-03-25 16:47:49 UTC
If you rep a target with your carrier and that is aggressed, you will also get aggression and be unable to dock. You can rep your cyno alts and dock immediately (as needed) if they do not take offensive action.

As far as positioning cynos...take the time to get a feel for the docking radius of the station. If you turn on your tactical overlay you can imagine the 5km range ring as a sphere. Your capital ship can arrive anywhere on the edge of the sphere so be careful about your placement. When jumping multiple capitals be aware that they can arrive on the same location and bump hilariously far. Some people will jump one cap and wait until it docks to jump the next one.

Kickout stations are not an issue in lowsec, as you can jump immediatly as soon as your session change timer is up while your invulnerability timer is up (obviously have your cyno up before you undock on a kickout station to avoid making mistakes). Many people do not like this as caps can move through lowsec with impunity due to lowered session change timers.

You will have to be careful in nullsec though with kickout stations. If the undock is bubbled you cannot jump so yeah...
Solotta Erquilenne
#6 - 2013-03-25 17:07:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Solotta Erquilenne
Ginger Barbarella wrote:

No, you're asking about doing something that can be done quicker and a LOT cheaper than buying a carrier when you admittedly don't have the skills necessary to maximize what one can do. Once again, if you have the isk to waste, feel free to donate to me.


If you're so intent on that isk, you might have a better chance if you tell me this cheaper/quicker method so I don't have to go buy a carrier. If the answer is 'frog logistics,' I will not be impressed.

@Super Chair, thank you for your comments.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#7 - 2013-03-25 17:35:56 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:

No, you're asking about doing something that can be done quicker and a LOT cheaper than buying a carrier when you admittedly don't have the skills necessary to maximize what one can do. Once again, if you have the isk to waste, feel free to donate to me.


It's amazing to me that people even bother asking for advice on these forums when most replies are from dou...... er, unhelpful, pretentious, condescending people like this. Why would OP need max carrier skills to do simple logistical moves with one? If you know the answer, answer it. If you don't know, why reply?

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-03-25 21:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Klymer
Your best bet would probably be to login to the Singularity test server and fly the ship there first. You can test out locations for cyno's next to stations to get a feel for how close is too close. You can also get moved to one of the pvp zones so you can get some combat experience with it on the cheap, you do know ships and mods only cost 100isk on there and are seeded in practically every station right? You even get free SP to spend there if you take part in the occasional mass tests they do there, see the test server forum for more info.

Edit: seems they are planning a new mirror for next week so this would be a good opportunity to start.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#9 - 2013-03-26 00:17:29 UTC
If you don't want to lose it, don't undock with it.

One of the main rules of EVE: If you can't afford to lose it, don't fly it.
Frank Pannon
Emerald Swine Escavations
#10 - 2013-03-26 10:59:35 UTC
I have no experience with capitals, but I would do what Klymer suggested, on the test server you can gain experience that sticks, you can ask your friends to shoot you to see your tank, you can test jumping etc.

It is a free tool, make use of it, and it will pay dividents later on the real server.
Milan Nantucket
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-03-26 13:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Milan Nantucket
Station tank it... only way to be sure. Leave it in there and see how many spins you get before you undock it and lose it then post tears...

More seriously... you should worry more about hot dropping dreads than titan drive-bys. Even if you in docking range and repping the timer I believe affects you and before you know your bumbed off station and a few dreads pop up and voila.... don't use a cyno falcon... you think cuz they can jam they are elite however a few auto targetting heavy missiles or drones will fix that eliteness... I suggest a rookie ship. The gallente one is often used for it's cargo space. Light cyno and log the alt out so if the ship is popped the pod warps away.

Other than that... if your worried about losing it then maybe don't fly it .
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#12 - 2013-03-26 13:58:48 UTC
TBH a carrier is a great logistical tool for moving your fit ships around to where you need them. Many people buy them for that exact purpose.

Ginger Barbarella wrote:

No, you're asking about doing something that can be done quicker and a LOT cheaper than buying a carrier when you admittedly don't have the skills necessary to maximize what one can do. Once again, if you have the isk to waste, feel free to donate to me.

nom nom
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#13 - 2013-03-26 15:01:47 UTC
My biggest advice would be:
Don't use the Falcon for a cyno.
Don't let strangers cyno you

After that:
Carry replacement cyno ships/fittings in the ship bay
Train multiple cyno alts and keep them in strategic stations
Organize your drones immeditely. Group them so you know what to launch.


As Nexxala mentioned, My Carriers have way more use as a transport service than actual combat.
Cute E
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-03-26 17:44:53 UTC
Use throwaway cyno alts. Don't fit for combat, if you get bumped off a station you will die, you need to select stations to cyno in and spam dock. If you get targeted, if you get locked, if you get pointed, if you get aggressed, you're doing it wrong.

If you want to fit for something, fit neuts and EC drones by the ton. You can also try warp core stabilizers and a cloak if/when you need to cyno in a system without a station - start self-destruct sequence on the alt, jump the carrier when the alt has something like 10 seconds to live, cloak immediately and slowboat away whilst logging off the cyno alt so the pod gets out. Or log off entirely for a while and then scout with the alt the area first. If you do get pointed/scrammed by anything else than a HIC, you have the chance to warp away to a safe or something before getting dropped by everyone .
Mire Stoude
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-03-26 18:12:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Mire Stoude
If this is for low sec all your cyno alt needs is a cheap frig and a cyno. When you jump in you just dock the carrier and laugh if someone pops your alt. Heck, you can even log the alt off after the carrier is safe. The ship will stay in local but will warp off when the cyno is down.

For 0.0 I usually just risked the cyno alt in the cyno frig getting past gate camps. I choose my low sec to null entrances carefully to avoid camps. You could use a falcon or other recons, but if you are jumping through a NPC owned null system they are very vulnerable and an expensive loss. But still cheaper than losing your carrier because you got aggression from repping it and bumped off the station out of docking range.

Getting bumped off station either by a badly placed cyno or a hostile ship is going to be your biggest concern. I've seen carriers jump into the structure of a station and get bump out 20-30km. Plus it won't align to warp out until it slows down. So you are a sitting duck for what feels like an eternity.

I believe a ship can jump in anywhere around 7km of the cyno, so remember that when placing the cyno.

As far as any other concerns about capitals and supers, remember they have to be ready for you to gank you. Stay away from routines that can be easily monitored and recorded. Also don't involve Corp or alliance people you don't trust, awoxers are everywhere and capitals are good killboard fillers.

Above all else chose a low population system to jump into and move fast; light the cyno, jump, dock, surf pr0n for 10 min, and repeat until you are at your location. Do not linger around letting people get funny ideas about killing a carrier.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#16 - 2013-03-26 18:39:45 UTC

1.) If your carrier gets caught off station, it will most likely die... AVOIDING the fight is the only way to truly keep it alive.

2.) When cynoing from station to station, the ONLY way you can lose a carrier is through pilot error. This includes:
a.) Bad cyno placement... A good cyno lands your carrier within docking station, yet far enough away that you do NOT bounce off the station. Your carrier is at significant risk of loss when you are outside of dock range... as most ships can easily bump you farther from dock.
b.) Undock Invulnerability: Your ship is invulnerable when it undocks for 30? seconds... it can't be bumped, it can't be targeted... unless you break your invulnerability. The ONLY action you can take and NOT break invulnerability is hitting ctrl+Space to stop your ship.
c.) Cyno Invulnerability: When you cyno into a system... you also get a 30? second session change invlunerability. You cannot be targeted, and I don't believe you can be bumped....
d.) The Session change timer: Undocking, Cynoing, etc... creates a 10 second session change timer... you cannot dock/jump until this session change timer expires... there is a setting where you can display the session change timer on the top left of your screen, so you know when it expires. Trying to dock or jump during the session change timer will break your invulnerability and deny you rights to dock until the timer runs out.... and 10 seconds is enough time to bump you off (some) stations.

3.) The dock radius for capitals is very different from the dock radius for subcaps. A capital can ctrl+space and redock (after the session change timer) at all stations. Some stations are close though... and if you break invulnerability before you session change expires you'll easily be bumped off station before you can redock.

4.) Fit your carrier for however you want.... If you are only using it for moving ships around... your tank is irrelevant as you should not engage in combat... a cloak, warp stabs, and EC drones will probably serve you better than any faction hardener will.

5.) Be aware of how aggression transfers now... A carrier repping a falcon will usually protect the falcon well... but... if your falcon aggresses, your carrier will inherit that aggression timer when it reps the falcon, and 1 minute is plenty of time to cyno in a fleet and destroy a carrier trying to "deagress and dock". And this is not as rare as you'd believe...
BadFC
Doomheim
#17 - 2013-03-27 22:25:55 UTC
Klymer wrote:
Your best bet would probably be to login to the Singularity test server and fly the ship there first. You can test out locations for cyno's next to stations to get a feel for how close is too close. You can also get moved to one of the pvp zones so you can get some combat experience with it on the cheap, you do know ships and mods only cost 100isk on there and are seeded in practically every station right? You even get free SP to spend there if you take part in the occasional mass tests they do there, see the test server forum for more info.

Edit: seems they are planning a new mirror for next week so this would be a good opportunity to start.


this is good advice...

log into the test server to practice.

watch some rook and kings videos to see what those ships are designed to do...
Dan Carter Murray
#18 - 2013-03-29 04:03:09 UTC
Solotta Erquilenne wrote:
Ship: Thanatos
Skills: Assume 4's in relevant carrier skills, capital module skills, no triage
Use: Traveling and moving ships through potentially hostile lowsec and npc nullsec
Cynos: Throwaway alt as well as falcon

-Is 2x capital rep, 2x faction EANM, dcu, capacitor power relay +3x CCC's still good for general purpose use? Should the CPR be an explosive hardener instead?

-The closest I expect to get to combat would be repping my own falcon on a station while the cyno finishes (only if the falcon gets attacked). Please explain how I might get killed doing this and how to avoid getting killed. If the falcon jams someone will the weapons timer be transferred to the carrier? Are titan drive-bys the only threat here or can a nyx kill a thanny before it can deagress?

-Kick out stations. How dangerous are these with the session-change timer being shorter than ever? I've heard you can kill velocity without breaking undock invulnerability, is getting bumped still a danger here? The Gallente Administrative station is the only one I know to be a kickout, but npc stations are more varied. Is there some list of station models to look up?

-Placing the cyno. I understand there's some art to this, with ships appearing within a 5km of the beacon. The risk is appearing outside docking radius or bouncing off station geometry. The exact sphere can be shown using the tactical overlay and a salvage module. Is this all basically correct?


how to not lose it: never undock.

http://mfi.re/?j7ldoco 50GB free space @ MediaFire.com
Mirel Dystoph
Perkone
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-03-29 04:36:10 UTC
if you're losing a carrier while moving stuff around you're too dumb to have a backup cyno and deserve it.

"Nothing essential happens in the absence of noise." 
Kamden Line
Sovereign Citizen and other Tax Evasion Schemes
#20 - 2013-03-29 06:26:39 UTC
Rule of thumb: If you bump, you die.

therefore, talk to people who know better than you about where to put your cyno, and most will happily educate you on the subject . Just from experience, the easiest one to cyno to is the open faced Caldari station (the Jita 4-4 station model), as the docking radius is enormous. The most difficult one to cyno to is probably the circular Caldari ring station only found in 0.0. Even if you get your cyno properly placed, your capital ship will probably still have to burn to it to dock.

If you want some easy practice, find somebody with a Black Ops and cyno them into a station a few times. Even if you screw up the cyno, they can align quickly and warp off. If you're really feeling funny, cyno them directly into the middle of a station and see how far they bounce.
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