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Off-grid boosting
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Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#1 - 2013-03-26 11:58:47 UTC
Hey all o/

I sort of took a break from Eve a while ago, probably right around the time incursions were starting to really pick up steam. I never really cared much for incursions, and I sort of saw them as "easy mode" for Eve. Going right off that, I found that "hard mode" would be something akin to small gang or even solo PVP. I used to enjoy the thrill of researching what'd be a great way to make a weird or even strange ship somewhat viable for certain roles in a solo setting.

At any rate, I remember one thread where I posted and it involved an off-grid booster to drop a Dramiel's signature. The off-grid booster was actually a titan, and somebody came into the thread and suggested an off-grid Loki could reduce the signature even further. At any rate all these bonuses and they're coming from ships that can be far away from the actual ship, itself.

So I got to thinking. Just how much meta-gaming do we want in Eve before the meta-gaming becomes "necessary" in order to be competitive? I joined some incursions recently and enjoy doing them now because they're a good way to socialize with some people and have a good time, and they use off-grid boosters. But when I went down to lowsec earlier tonight to do a little pew pew, I found that there was a Loki giving off-grid boosts to a small frigate skirmish fleet. We didn't have one, and the frigs had ridiculous scrams and webs, were flying all over the grid and it was just a pain to deal with it.

The Loki was at a local control tower, so it was untouchable. So my issue is basically this. Non-module bonuses are fairly powerful. Implants, gang links and other meta-bonuses are abundant and viable. But because of this, are they seemingly required to gain a MASSIVE advantage in PVP across all formats, whether it be "solo," small gang, large fleet or blob warfare. All these ships can be buzzing around gaining massive bonuses at no cost.

How is this fair to the game? Doesn't this seem toxic? Eve is definitely a place where shady and underhanded things take place. But since I came back I realized that much of Eve is deception, and it grows weary and tiresome. It'd be great to see a change address this so everyone can be on a playing field where ships that offer bonuses must be defended so the benefits they bring the fleet must have level of similar risk associated with them.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Aestivalis Saidrian
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#2 - 2013-03-26 12:00:37 UTC
ABOUT THAT!
I can't quote where because I can't find the post in question but CCP is definitely removing Off-grid boosting and onto On-grid boosters as part of the Command Ship buff.

So if you see a fleet with Links, there's command ships out there, and you can whack'em. Twisted
Yori Kurita
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-03-26 12:03:01 UTC
Aestivalis Saidrian wrote:
ABOUT THAT!
I can't quote where because I can't find the post in question but CCP is definitely removing Off-grid boosting and onto On-grid boosters as part of the Command Ship buff.

So if you see a fleet with Links, there's command ships out there, and you can whack'em. Twisted



I want to see this post.
Simokon
The Steelborn
#4 - 2013-03-26 12:06:00 UTC
Not to be rude but you are very late to this party, CCP knows it is a problem and it is only because of technical issues that it is not fixed yet.
Ronix Aideron
Zymurgy Corp.
#5 - 2013-03-26 12:11:43 UTC
This is the only thing that I could find.

http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73530

Quote:
As a side note, as we announced a while ago, we are not pleased by having Warfare Links work outside the battlefield zone, and will be investigating options to move them on grid. Command and Tech3 ships providing that much of an advantage should commit to an engagement instead of being safely parked inside a POS bubble.

Start the day off slow and taper off from there.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Ronix_Aideron
Princess Saskia
Hyperfleet Industries
#6 - 2013-03-26 12:16:12 UTC
So I got to thinking. Just how much meta-gaming do we want in Eve before the meta-gaming becomes "necessary" in order to be competitive?

It is already required, pointless thread is pointless.

 ♥ 
Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#7 - 2013-03-26 12:19:53 UTC
Princess Saskia wrote:
So I got to thinking. Just how much meta-gaming do we want in Eve before the meta-gaming becomes "necessary" in order to be competitive?

It is already required, pointless thread is pointless.

lol

That aside, I have come to realize Eve is like the Internet on the Internet. You can't even have your make believe character in game have lasting repercussions from actions because you can just have lots of alts. That's one thing sure, but the thread is not about meta-gaming as much as it is about benefits being acquired via meta-gaming in a way that it upsets the balance by causing a shift in what's required for "normal" gameplay.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Spurty
#8 - 2013-03-26 12:20:16 UTC
Technical issue is that 'grid' isn't centered around the players.

You could have your links on "a" grid, but not give out any bonuses as the fleet thats 20kms from you is on another 'grid'.

That's a real non-starter.

To fix this, the fundamental "grid" has to be replaced.

Can you say "epic task doomed to fail in multiple unexpected ways and affecting everyone, including non-bonus beneficiaries"?

Be a support melt down :O

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Jill Xelitras
Xeltec services
#9 - 2013-03-26 12:28:11 UTC
Hello and welcome back Siig Big smile


If it's possible for the game engine to know when to catch a squad / wing / fleet warp, then it should be possible to determine whom to boost ...

my opinion ... and it's loosely based on actual facts.


Jill.

Don't anger the forum gods.

ISD Buldath:

> I Saw, I came, I Frowned, I locked, I posted, and I left.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2013-03-26 12:46:51 UTC
CCP Fozzie has said (CBA to find the quote) something to the effect:

"Off Grid Boosting will be eliminated in favor of on-Grid boosting the next scheduled patch after we figure out how to do it."

And I think most people are in favor of this.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Othran
Route One
#11 - 2013-03-26 13:05:55 UTC
Spurty wrote:
Technical issue is that 'grid' isn't centered around the players.

You could have your links on "a" grid, but not give out any bonuses as the fleet thats 20kms from you is on another 'grid'.

That's a real non-starter.

To fix this, the fundamental "grid" has to be replaced.

Can you say "epic task doomed to fail in multiple unexpected ways and affecting everyone, including non-bonus beneficiaries"?

Be a support melt down :O




Spot on the money.

The alternative is computationally impractical now.

I suspect the compromise will be that you can't boost from within POS shields and gang boosts will become an area of effect module. That's messy but possibly do-able with some very clever coding.
Eve Amada
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2013-03-26 13:31:41 UTC
Just make it where the warfare links have an effected boost range of like 250 km radius.

Problem solved. Boost ship has to be close enough to fleet to give boosts, but can stay away from fight if they want too.
Erehwon Rorschach
LoGisTicAl ERr0R
#13 - 2013-03-26 13:45:24 UTC
Eve Amada wrote:
Just make it where the warfare links have an effected boost range of like 250 km radius.

Problem solved. Boost ship has to be close enough to fleet to give boosts, but can stay away from fight if they want too.




This sounds like the most simple solution......I think 250 km is too far, if you effect the fight as much as these ships can then you really should be in the fight, I guess this would be a MAJOR improvement to the current system though.


Because your mum just couldn't say no.
Othran
Route One
#14 - 2013-03-26 13:59:39 UTC
Eve Amada wrote:
Just make it where the warfare links have an effected boost range of like 250 km radius.

Problem solved. Boost ship has to be close enough to fleet to give boosts, but can stay away from fight if they want too.


Its not that simple.

You'd have to run checks on everyone in range continuously which will seriously **** up the node, even with relatively small fleets (something similar happened in FW years ago with standing checks).

The advantage of making the modules area of effect is that you fire the module, node checks who is in range and they get the bonuses. Node doesn't have to check again until module fires again*. That's probably do-able with the hardware they have now.

*make bonuses cancel when you initiate warp/session change to avoid the worst of the "side-effects"
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2013-03-26 14:15:09 UTC
lol

Show me that lowsec system with only one off-grid booster

.
Siigari Kitawa
Operation Sleepless
#16 - 2013-03-26 14:26:14 UTC
After reading this thread, either people are under the impression that CCP are lazy and take/have taken shortcuts to code the game, or CCP are guilty ofl the aforementioned.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2013-03-26 14:34:56 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
After reading this thread, either people are under the impression that CCP are lazy and take/have taken shortcuts to code the game, or CCP are guilty ofl the aforementioned.


Look up some of the comments that CCP devs have made about working with the POS code.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-03-26 14:40:55 UTC
Eve Amada wrote:
Just make it where the warfare links have an effected boost range of like 250 km radius.

Problem solved. Boost ship has to be close enough to fleet to give boosts, but can stay away from fight if they want too.



I very much doubt this would work, when two ships are on different grids the range relationship would not be maintained.

tbh i'm all for the 'must be on grid' solution, it just means the both the boosting ship and the pilots wanting boosts will have to be responsible for making sure they are in the right place to get the boosts.

kiting fleets are that push the grid boundaries run the risk of screwing themselves up, but they can always warp to another spot on grid or all move into the next one.

it just means players will need to think a tiny bit, which can't be a bad thing.