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Pacifist Corps
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Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#21 - 2013-01-30 22:14:45 UTC
So, even in pacifist corps, people will do PvP, despite the fact they want it or not? So what with this pacifist thing all about? Leave it as it is, and let them outbid themselves to poverty. Bear

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#22 - 2013-01-30 22:15:18 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Yes, outbidding is form of competition, but is it PvP? When you say it's PvP, then truth is, there is always some sort of competition between players in every game. So every game where you could only trade, there would be PvP, but without combat.

I don't think it's something relevant that we have competition everywhere, but usually people assume its something with battling other players with lots of swearing and shooting/hacking/slashing/combat, not selling high, bying low. It's more like trading with others, not combating them, and we have people in this game that don't like shooting. Shocked


I understand most people think Ship-to-Ship combat when they discuss PvP in EvE, or some type of combat whenever they discuss PvP games...

But think of games like civilization... A huge part of that game involves building cities to acquire resources, which directly prevents your opponents from using those same resources.... Imagine if you had war-dec immune civilizations that could just expand and expand and expand.... That would suck, and be a fairly broken tactic to win the game!!!

Just because you don't want to engage in ship-to-ship combat doesn't mean you should be immune to it... Brute Force has always been a common Meme to eliminate your competition...
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#23 - 2013-01-30 22:23:26 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
So, even in pacifist corps, people will do PvP, despite the fact they want it or not? So what with this pacifist thing all about? Leave it as it is, and let them outbid themselves to poverty. Bear


The idea of the Pacifist Corp is to put an additional hurdle between the war-dec aggressors and the defenders... Not something that's impossible to bypass, but something extra that needs to be dealt with...

If you declare war on a Pacifist corp, you can hunt them down and kill them... but you have to worry about 3rd parties interfering with the fight... and killing you.

For example: wardecing a mission running corp. If you try to attack them at a high-traffic gate or at station, there's a decent chance some third party will jump in and shoot you.

For example: wardecing a mining corp... You can attack them in a belt... but while you do it some 3rd party might take you out too...

These 3rd parties are in enormously advantageous positions... being able to focus fire on your ships... and can essentially shred the aggressing attack force.

Will these parties exist? Maybe, maybe not... but it opens up possibilities.

Essentially, most wardecs are asymmetric in favor of the aggressor, and this tilts the scale towards the defender with a friend... because the friend can asymmetrically engage that aggressor while in a blatantly strategically superior position!

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#24 - 2013-01-30 22:37:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
f you declare war on a Pacifist corp, you can hunt them down and kill them... but you have to worry about 3rd parties interfering with the fight... and killing you.


But you can't hunt down and kill someone who doesn't want to fight with you, like with Pacifist NPC corps. People will just stay in NPC corps with this mechanic, unless you will give them more than they have in NPC corps, like POS and low tax. But if attacked, than what will stop them from disbanding the corp and you are -XX.XXX.XXX on your account? Will you change mechanic for war declaration for them, so they can't leave it? Than they will never join them because they can be killed and hunted.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#25 - 2013-01-30 22:40:21 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Pacifist corporations should, as a form of non-violent protest, undock in unfit rookie ships and let their aggressors kill them.

After enough times doing this, the aggressors will be embarrased and ashamed at so many easy ganks that they will move on.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#26 - 2013-01-30 22:51:18 UTC
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
f you declare war on a Pacifist corp, you can hunt them down and kill them... but you have to worry about 3rd parties interfering with the fight... and killing you.


But you can't hunt down and kill someone who doesn't want to fight with you, like with Pacifist NPC corps. People will just stay in NPC corps with this mechanic, unless you will give them POS and low tax. But if attacked, than what will stop them from disbanding the corp and you are -XX.XXX.XXX on your account? Will you change mechanic for war declaration for them, so they can't leave it? Than they will never join them because thay can be killed and hunted.


Ideally you'd simply remove NPC corps from the game, or turn them into wardeccable NPC Corps.... If we must take a less extreme measures, I'd have NPC corps tax all revenue streams at 15-20%.... be it selling stuff on the market, refining stuff, mission rewards, or whatever.... (Note: I think all corps should be able to tax all player revenue streams at the corporate determined rate).

There's still ways around this... put an alt in your 1-man corp, trade him your ore, and he can reprocesses/sell it tax free... So even this isn't a "foolproof" solution.

In short, your right in that you can't force people to fight... and that's just a fact... and I'm not trying to make that happen... Instead, I'm trying to reverse the wardec paradigm: The current wardecs situation typically favors the aggressors, and this tilts the scale to put the aggressors in a disadvantageous position.
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#27 - 2013-01-30 22:52:30 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Pacifist corporations should, as a form of non-violent protest, undock in unfit rookie ships and let their aggressors kill them.

After enough times doing this, the aggressors will be embarrased and ashamed at so many easy ganks that they will move on.



That would be fun, but pointless, as so many EVE players will don't hesitate do try to make them so angry that they will attack him, thus stop being pacifists, so they could be killed without shame.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#28 - 2013-01-30 23:07:58 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Bagrat Skalski wrote:
Quote:
f you declare war on a Pacifist corp, you can hunt them down and kill them... but you have to worry about 3rd parties interfering with the fight... and killing you.


But you can't hunt down and kill someone who doesn't want to fight with you, like with Pacifist NPC corps. People will just stay in NPC corps with this mechanic, unless you will give them POS and low tax. But if attacked, than what will stop them from disbanding the corp and you are -XX.XXX.XXX on your account? Will you change mechanic for war declaration for them, so they can't leave it? Than they will never join them because thay can be killed and hunted.


Ideally you'd simply remove NPC corps from the game, or turn them into wardeccable NPC Corps.... If we must take a less extreme measures, I'd have NPC corps tax all revenue streams at 15-20%.... be it selling stuff on the market, refining stuff, mission rewards, or whatever.... (Note: I think all corps should be able to tax all player revenue streams at the corporate determined rate).

There's still ways around this... put an alt in your 1-man corp, trade him your ore, and he can reprocesses/sell it tax free... So even this isn't a "foolproof" solution.

In short, your right in that you can't force people to fight... and that's just a fact... and I'm not trying to make that happen... Instead, I'm trying to reverse the wardec paradigm: The current wardecs situation typically favors the aggressors, and this tilts the scale to put the aggressors in a disadvantageous position.


How you want to put the agressors in a disadvantageous position, when you want these pacifistic players to be hunted and killed more easily in the first place, think who will be a pacifist in this mess... Or they will just make 1 man corp, everyone of them, unless you change mechanic for war declarations, so they will be grounded, and thus, not playing. Sad

Now you frightened me. I made that idea with paying for CONCORD protection, and it was mocked and attacked mercilessly for being too harsh for carebears, poor and new players, but now i see, I am like the Sorcerer's Apprentice. Lol

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#29 - 2013-01-30 23:24:50 UTC

Quote:
How you want to put the agressors in a disadvantageous position, when you want these pacifistic players to be hunted and killed more easily in the first place, think who will be a pacifist in this mess... Or they will just make 1 man corp, everyone of them, unless you change mechanic for war declarations, so they will be grounded, and thus, not playing. Sad


Did you not understand my civilization analogy? Having players that can build and mine and mission run and gather resources while being immune to attack is very bad for this game.... Luckily, CCP allows suicide ganking, but IMO all people should be in a wardeccable position...

The aggressors attacking a Pacifist corp would be flagged as suspects... meaning any fleet wondering by can join the fright and destroy those aggressors... this is a pretty decent disadvantage... as essentially all of eve becomes a potential ally anytime they attack you....

Quote:
Now you frightened me. I made that idea with paying for CONCORD protection, and it was mocked and attacked mercilessly for being too harsh for carebears, poor and new players, but now i see, I am like the Sorcerer's Apprentice. Lol


There is a big difference between being wardecced vs flying without Concord Protection. In the case of a wardec, you get warning about who your agressors are, and can use that information to prepare yourself for potential hostilities. In the case of You-forgot-to-pay-concord, everyone under the sun is your enemy and you can be ganked at anytime and any place... big difference... although your idea might have potential as long as concord stayed ONLY in highsec...
Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#30 - 2013-01-31 12:18:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bagrat Skalski
Quote:
although your idea might have potential as long as concord stayed ONLY in highsec...


Yes, that was the point. And i planned to do recurring payments. But really, that would be too much complicating, better give them NPC corps, but make them ready to recruit new players. NPC would stay protected by CONCORD from wardecs, no dev will make them wardecable. There was one similar experiment with AOC when they made the Deathwish server. Strict PVP, without guards, and corpse looting. Very few played it, people want to have a safe refuge even in the cold world of EVE. You will make them like potential shooting targets, miners, industrialists, mission runners, explorers. Or as I said earlier, maybe you want them making 1 man corps with alts, and jump between them, is it what you want? Its pointless redundancy, as they will try to make this and avoid being hunted, and it will hurt playerbase to some extend if you could make them a victims if they want this or not, but without extensive costs to hunters. There would be no High Sec, because war will claim every one corp out there.

Custom ship skins, character creator style "repaint". Bring it!
Goldnut Sachs
#31 - 2013-03-25 15:34:47 UTC
I would understand it better if OP can describe the changes he wants done to the current crime watch and war dec mechanics, specifically.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#32 - 2013-03-25 16:00:02 UTC
This is bad for the very simple reasons that:

a. it would reinforce there should be "absolute" safety somewhere
b. the "pacifists" would still be allowed to engage in non-combat PVP, including but not limited to the markets, material acquisition (i.e. mining), planetary strip mining (i.e. PI), and industrial/scientific improvements (i.e. using NPC provided slots).


as much as some people want to deny it, conflict is an integral part of this game ... it's not always direct combat, though that's usually the fastest solution.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#33 - 2013-03-25 19:37:29 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
This is bad for the very simple reasons that:

a. it would reinforce there should be "absolute" safety somewhere
b. the "pacifists" would still be allowed to engage in non-combat PVP, including but not limited to the markets, material acquisition (i.e. mining), planetary strip mining (i.e. PI), and industrial/scientific improvements (i.e. using NPC provided slots).


as much as some people want to deny it, conflict is an integral part of this game ... it's not always direct combat, though that's usually the fastest solution.


a.) How do you figure this result? These corps are still wardec'able.... they are still subject to suicide ganking, etc... There is not "absolute safety" created by these corps.... and I certainly wouldn't propose such a thing!

b.) I acknowledge that "pacifists" would still be allowed to engage in non-combat PvP. This is why there NEEDS to be some drawbacks to operating in a Pacifist Corp. I suggested several potential drawbacks... but am very open to further suggestions!

Quote:
Why wouldn't every corp be a Pacifist Corp then? There needs to be some limitations on Pacifist Corps.... Potential limitations:
  • They can't anchor a POS in highsec?
  • They can't join an alliance?
  • Perhaps they have a monthly fee they must pay to concord?
    		•
    Zircon Dasher
    #34 - 2013-03-25 23:08:58 UTC
    So the basic idea is make NPC corps dec-able. With the caveat that anybody shooting an NPC corp player gets a suspect flag? IS this the general idea your working toward?

    Love it. The whine threads will be glorious.

    Lets take it up a notch though.... Placing a wardec on an NPC corp gives your entire corp a suspect flag for the duration of the war.

    Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
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