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About split weapons and drones...
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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1 - 2013-03-25 05:31:33 UTC
Why are split weapon systems for missile/gun generally frowned upon by the Devs, but split drone/gun weapon systems are fine? Why aren't there any true drone boats with dual drone bonuses?

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Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#2 - 2013-03-25 05:35:22 UTC
Because drones are awesome
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-03-25 05:40:52 UTC
Domi should get its 6 guns removed for 5 more heavy/sentries...
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#4 - 2013-03-25 07:37:53 UTC
Because drones can be all destroyed, and because turrets and drones complement each others, and don't fight from the same high slots.

50/50 high slot split = bad

50/50 drone / turrets = awesome

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Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#5 - 2013-03-25 17:06:18 UTC
Roime wrote:
Because drones can be all destroyed, and because turrets and drones complement each others, and don't fight from the same high slots.

50/50 high slot split = bad

50/50 drone / turrets = awesome

yeah but does that make sense that they have to fight for all the low slots for damage modifiers? You have to pick between so-so turret or so-so drone dps. And the fact that drones can be destroyed only makes me think it'd make more sense to have dedicated drone boats with more than 5 drones--1 drone destroyed out of 5 = 20% damage loss. 1 drone destroyed out of 10 = 10% damage loss. I think there's a clear winner there.

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Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#6 - 2013-03-25 17:11:22 UTC
Isn't that what Carriers do?
Sodohm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-03-25 17:27:02 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Roime wrote:
Because drones can be all destroyed, and because turrets and drones complement each others, and don't fight from the same high slots.

50/50 high slot split = bad

50/50 drone / turrets = awesome

yeah but does that make sense that they have to fight for all the low slots for damage modifiers? You have to pick between so-so turret or so-so drone dps. And the fact that drones can be destroyed only makes me think it'd make more sense to have dedicated drone boats with more than 5 drones--1 drone destroyed out of 5 = 20% damage loss. 1 drone destroyed out of 10 = 10% damage loss. I think there's a clear winner there.


Ships used to do that in the past, then, they removed extra drones in favor of drone dps bonuses. Why ? server load is why.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-03-25 17:33:54 UTC
Sodohm wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Roime wrote:
Because drones can be all destroyed, and because turrets and drones complement each others, and don't fight from the same high slots.

50/50 high slot split = bad

50/50 drone / turrets = awesome

yeah but does that make sense that they have to fight for all the low slots for damage modifiers? You have to pick between so-so turret or so-so drone dps. And the fact that drones can be destroyed only makes me think it'd make more sense to have dedicated drone boats with more than 5 drones--1 drone destroyed out of 5 = 20% damage loss. 1 drone destroyed out of 10 = 10% damage loss. I think there's a clear winner there.


Ships used to do that in the past, then, they removed extra drones in favor of drone dps bonuses. Why ? server load is why.


And now, with the server side drone handling changes (handled as single entity when on same target), plus beefier hamsters, it's no long an issue. So bring the drone swarm back.Lol
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#9 - 2013-03-25 18:44:25 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Sodohm wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Roime wrote:
Because drones can be all destroyed, and because turrets and drones complement each others, and don't fight from the same high slots.

50/50 high slot split = bad

50/50 drone / turrets = awesome

yeah but does that make sense that they have to fight for all the low slots for damage modifiers? You have to pick between so-so turret or so-so drone dps. And the fact that drones can be destroyed only makes me think it'd make more sense to have dedicated drone boats with more than 5 drones--1 drone destroyed out of 5 = 20% damage loss. 1 drone destroyed out of 10 = 10% damage loss. I think there's a clear winner there.


Ships used to do that in the past, then, they removed extra drones in favor of drone dps bonuses. Why ? server load is why.


And now, with the server side drone handling changes (handled as single entity when on same target), plus beefier hamsters, it's no long an issue. So bring the drone swarm back.Lol
+1 to this. And if it *is* a server-side lag issue, just limit the amount of "true" drone ships capable of handling more than 5. Make Vexor/Myrm/Domi the only ships capable of handling more than 5. Maybe 6, 8, 10 respectively. That'd certainly go a long way in limiting "the swarm" (of server requests). True drone-only dps cruiser, BC, and BS niche would be filled. I mean, every other primary-damage type has a dedicated ship or two--including outliers like neuting and webbing or other more mainstream ewar. And I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the other empires catch up and give us a TD, damp, and TP BS (Tech 2 Blops? Faction?).

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Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#10 - 2013-03-25 18:53:04 UTC
I thought the problem with bee swarms was client lag and not server lag. I guess you can just turn off drone brackets, but sometimes you actually do want to target drones, and having them on overview is just....lol. Just lol.
Kestutis Fujika
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-03-25 18:56:13 UTC
Maximus Andendare wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Sodohm wrote:
Maximus Andendare wrote:
Roime wrote:
Because drones can be all destroyed, and because turrets and drones complement each others, and don't fight from the same high slots.

50/50 high slot split = bad

50/50 drone / turrets = awesome

yeah but does that make sense that they have to fight for all the low slots for damage modifiers? You have to pick between so-so turret or so-so drone dps. And the fact that drones can be destroyed only makes me think it'd make more sense to have dedicated drone boats with more than 5 drones--1 drone destroyed out of 5 = 20% damage loss. 1 drone destroyed out of 10 = 10% damage loss. I think there's a clear winner there.


Ships used to do that in the past, then, they removed extra drones in favor of drone dps bonuses. Why ? server load is why.


And now, with the server side drone handling changes (handled as single entity when on same target), plus beefier hamsters, it's no long an issue. So bring the drone swarm back.Lol
+1 to this. And if it *is* a server-side lag issue, just limit the amount of "true" drone ships capable of handling more than 5. Make Vexor/Myrm/Domi the only ships capable of handling more than 5. Maybe 6, 8, 10 respectively. That'd certainly go a long way in limiting "the swarm" (of server requests). True drone-only dps cruiser, BC, and BS niche would be filled. I mean, every other primary-damage type has a dedicated ship or two--including outliers like neuting and webbing or other more mainstream ewar. And I'm sure it's only a matter of time before the other empires catch up and give us a TD, damp, and TP BS (Tech 2 Blops? Faction?).

And dont forget pure drone marauder ship!!!!!
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#12 - 2013-03-26 07:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Throktar
I have wanted more split weapon options for a long time. I would love a BS hull that had no drone bay, but sported a 7 high slot lay out with 4 turrets and 3 launchers. The ship would have a bonus of 100% damage to large turrets and light missiles and rockets. Then you can stick the racial bonuses after that. It would be a lot of fun to have a ship that can take care of the big targets and the little ones without drone management. A true battleship that can take on any size sub cap without relying on drones.
Ze4K DK
Luxury Yacht Social Club
#13 - 2013-03-27 06:54:49 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
I thought the problem with bee swarms was client lag and not server lag. I guess you can just turn off drone brackets, but sometimes you actually do want to target drones, and having them on overview is just....lol. Just lol.


What's wrong with having an overview tab for drones?
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-03-27 11:57:24 UTC
Ze4K DK wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
I thought the problem with bee swarms was client lag and not server lag. I guess you can just turn off drone brackets, but sometimes you actually do want to target drones, and having them on overview is just....lol. Just lol.


What's wrong with having an overview tab for drones?


You don't target drones. Fit a smartbomb.
Eisen Kern
Doomheim
#15 - 2013-03-27 14:30:01 UTC
More variety in ships would be great, Vexor, Myrm and Domi are excellent candidates for pure drone boats with no guns, even if that's done with modules taking the place of turret slots. Just give us higher drone count sub caps <3 drones.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#16 - 2013-03-27 16:24:04 UTC
Eisen Kern wrote:
More variety in ships would be great, Vexor, Myrm and Domi are excellent candidates for pure drone boats with no guns, even if that's done with modules taking the place of turret slots. Just give us higher drone count sub caps <3 drones.
Very true, and it seems like it'd especially be possible now to create +drone control units for smaller-than-capital ships now that CCP can hard-code in instructions to only allow modules to be used on certain ships. Hell, it'd be awesome to have true drone ships: they could have role bonuses that repair drones automatically in the bay. Or maybe the highs could be taken up with a Drone Damage Link (active module that links to drones at a close range (visual UI effect) and redirects damage from the drone to the boat when linked up. This would incentivize attacking the mother ship at close range and keep the drones destructible from afar. Obviously, this would be ship limited.)

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Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#17 - 2013-03-27 17:45:13 UTC
Ze4K DK wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
I thought the problem with bee swarms was client lag and not server lag. I guess you can just turn off drone brackets, but sometimes you actually do want to target drones, and having them on overview is just....lol. Just lol.


What's wrong with having an overview tab for drones?

All 5 of my overview tab slots are used up actually. There's easily space in my UI for another 5 tabs, I don't know why we are limited to just having 5. Its weird.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#18 - 2013-03-27 18:02:11 UTC
Eisen Kern wrote:
More variety in ships would be great, Vexor, Myrm and Domi are excellent candidates for pure drone boats with no guns, even if that's done with modules taking the place of turret slots. Just give us higher drone count sub caps <3 drones.


Can any of you give some practical reasons why exactly do you want to break for example those three wonderful, versatile ships by removing their turrets?

As you know, currently you have the choice to not fit any weapons. Your suggestion reduces variety.

.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#19 - 2013-03-27 18:43:41 UTC
Roime wrote:
Eisen Kern wrote:
More variety in ships would be great, Vexor, Myrm and Domi are excellent candidates for pure drone boats with no guns, even if that's done with modules taking the place of turret slots. Just give us higher drone count sub caps <3 drones.


Can any of you give some practical reasons why exactly do you want to break for example those three wonderful, versatile ships by removing their turrets?

As you know, currently you have the choice to not fit any weapons. Your suggestion reduces variety.

By removing weapons, I lose damage, because the ships are balanced (and bonused) around their turret damage being included. But if the ships were true droneboats, which I would argue the Prophecy and Myrm come the closest too, then you get nothing but options, since I can pick unbonused weapons, neuts, etc. for my hi slots. It would seem to add *more* choice by shifting the full damage to the drones. In fact, if CCP ever gets around to making all drones viable in all situations, the droneboats would even be able to select their damage profile.

Think of these drone boats and trade offs. What if it simply meant the ability to fit +drone control units. Then, you'd have options. More drones? Mixed dps and ewar drones? Drones and neuts? You see the pattern here.

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Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#20 - 2013-03-27 19:20:58 UTC
Vexor - highest DPS T1 cruiser
Myrmidon - highest DPS T1 BC with Brutix
Dominix - highest DPS T1 battleship

Only things with more damage are pirate faction/T3 cruisers, Astarte and Navy Domi/Kronos/Vindi in their respective classes.

See the pattern? There is ample room to leave out the turrets now, and opt for neuts or whatever instead. My RR Domi for example does over 700 dps at 50km, with only drones.

I hope you understand that giving for example the Navy Dominix 1800 dps just with drones, while having free highs for whatever would be hilariously OP. And on the other hand, having 100% of your damage in destroyable drones would be underpowered.





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