Ships & Modules

I'm sorry, but you seem to have had your mind made up before coming to the forums. You're throwing around absolutes and flat out contradicting people like you think you know what's up. Once you stop asking questions and start down that road... well, your "I'm a poor helpless noob, don't troll me bro" defense falls a little flat.

The truth is that lasers do have an exceptionally high base DPS and have unmatched damage projection. I have a strong preference for the Omen vs the Maller - it is both faster and has more DPS. And frankly, the whole OP strikes me as someone who has never actually tried to fly a laser ship. Because flying the Omen is an exercise in what the **** where did my cap go!?!

-Liang

Mind made up on what? Selection of Maller vs. Omen? I obviously didn't have my mind made up, as I bought an Omen after having seriously leaned towards a Maller initially. I don't like the so-called 'bonus' the Omen gets, but it has a larger drone bay which is what swung me over in the end.

Not sure what set you off about my post, but whatever.



Why are you so sensitive and butthurt about someone positing what they know (or think they know) and asking for advice, evidence counter to what was posited, etc? I'm not sure what 'absolutes' I threw around. I just gave information that is available from CCP on ship bonuses, laser damage, etc. If I was right, fine. If I was wrong, fine, I gladly stand to be corrected. I don't get your reaction, unless it is just trolling.

*Shrug*.



I'm Amarr, I've flown laser ships exclusively. Not that that means anything - I'm a month old noob.

Engineering and Advanced Weapon Upgrades. Then again, it might just be Electronics or Weapon Upgrades, depending on the whatever.

-Liang

No, you actually had your mind made up about Amarr, lasers, and how "crappy" the bonus on the Omen was. At least, judging from your subsequent posts.



I'm not butthurt at all about anything you've said. I was simply pointing out that you had no idea what you were talking about despite the authoritative "This" and "That" and "Whatever". And really, you don't seem to be very glad to stand corrected. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: At any rate, back to work for me. I'm unfortunately a bit too busy for proper forum whoring these days.

Well yes, unless someone says something to change my mind on it, presents some kind of logic or reasoning I hadn't considered, etc. then I think the bonus on the Omen is somewhat crappy.

EDIT: Crappy not because it doesn't help the Omen - it certainly does. Crappy because the need for this sort of bonus probably points to some other fundamental balance issue.



If it makes you feel any better, I'll announce to the high heavens yet again that since I'm a noob, I obviously know little of what I'm talking about. And yes, if anything I've said is wrong, I will say again "I stand happy to be corrected."

This is usually the problem when you ask for advice on the forums, as most who have an opinion based on experience usually has maxed out fitting skills already (myself included).

If you're afraid of loosing ships left and right go on the test server, try out some fits and see how you like the feel of them. You can even train different skills there from TQ so you can essentially skill for ships you actually can't fly and try them out without 'wasting' time skilling for it just to abandon it.

Of course cap is a meaningful problem, as is any ship system. I just don't consider it a good 'bonus' to actually be able to fit my racial weapon, because every other race gets that 'bonus' for free.

The fact that CCP has been removing this sort of 'bonus' for Amarr ships tends to support what I'm saying.



I have acknowledged upsides - for instance the ability to switch crystals in about a second.

The reading comprehension issues on this forum are surprisingly bad.

Actually, it's a real bonus and this has been sort of explained already. You just shrugged it off then complain about reading comprehension of others. Take a deep breath and relax. You seem pretty wound up.

Each turret has innate problems that make it a not-great idea to cross race fit to another hull in a general case. Their own hulls are then bonused to make up for those shortcomings.

Lasers suck cap, that's for sure. But Pulse lasers hit out to ~24 km very effectively. This is a very important number, as that is (generally) the maximum range at which you can stop your target from warping away by using a warp disruptor - which also takes a LOT of cap to run. Blasters and autocannons will do significantly lower damage at that range. This is where Lasers shine. Likewise Multi/Conflag on a laser boat with Medium pulses will hit effectively out to 8-9K - this is warp scrambler range (stops warp and microwarp). Even when you can't control range to take offensive advantage of this, it means if someone is stopping you from warping away you can (almost) always shoot back at them. And very effectively at that. That's the strength of lasers.

Autocannons always shoot deep into falloff. You will see ranges like 1km optimal + 15km falloff. Sure that means they still hit pretty well out to 16km, but will do half damage at 16km and somewhat negligible beyond 21Km or so. That's why you see them bonused with damage AND tracking. To compensate the built in weakness of shooting into falloff doing reduced damage compared to the listed paper dps on the fitting screen - you only really do that much dps at blaster range.

Blasters have high base damage and tracking, but you get ranges like 2km optimal +6km falloff. Half damage at scramble (multifrequency) range. 6+8 with long range ammo - can't even hit someone at disruptor (scorch) range at all. You have to be right in the target's face to hit them for that high listed damage. That's why Gallente boats have lots of mids to hold the target in place and blaster boats have range or tracking bonuses. Short range also means you are in range of cap neutralizers, which lasers can outrange with scorch. This means sometimes despite hybrids costing less to fire, they can be easier to cap out.


So..
Projectiles use no cap and little power grid, but do little effective damage beyond real close range on an unbonused ship
Hybrids have good damage but real low range and still cost cap, while fighting in Neut range
Lasers have good mid-range damage but will kill your cap on a non-Amarr boat without the better base cap and laser cap use bonus

Yes, I get that, and have always gotten that. I've read extensively on all the different weapon systems, and their different strengths/weaknesses. Lasers have strengths, and they have weaknesses. Which has been my point all along - they aren't superweapons, they aren't OP compared to anything else, they are just another racial weapon system with different strengths/weaknesses than the other racial weapon systems. And that's what I would expect.

Some people hate lasers (I'm talking well-respected veteran PvP types). Some love them. Some are in the middle.

I've gone back years in the forum posts and read up. There was a time when Amarr was essentially considered a crap race, their ships considered crap ships, and their laser weapons considered crap weapons. Back then everyone played Caldari, and missles were seen as king. And even today, Amarr has less players than the other races.

The point is simply that there is no 'fact' which states that lasers are the best, because everybody out there has a different opinion. My opinion was essentially what you stated above - they have strengths and weaknesses just like everything else out there.

My issue, which I keep repeating over and over again, is that they don't seem to be treated by the devs as simply another weeapon system out there with strengths and weaknesses. The devs seem to think that it's some kind of reward to be able to fit these things, and thus force a ship to use up a bonus to make them easier to fit. That might be fine if lasers were OP, or 'the best.' But they aren't, and there's nobody on these forums that can make that claim without having others who are just as knowledgeable and well-respected and elite/veteran claiming the opposite.

I'm not disputing any of the features of lasers you, or anyone else has covered. And I appreciate you going over all of this. We are talking past each other. I 'hear' what you are saying. You and others aren't 'hearing' what I'm saying, possibly because you guys are laser aficionados.



That's just it. I haven't disputed that Amarr ships need such bonuses at all. What I've said is, it sucks that the devs have to use up a bonus on a ship to help players fit these things, when other races seem to get to fit their weapons 'for free.' In effect, I'm saying that it sucks that the lasers drain so much cap that they are difficult if not impossible to fit. They aren't better than anything else, so why are they singled out?

The point is, if Amarr ships really need this cap usage bonus (which I've never disputed), then perhaps that points to an issue with lasers and balance. Perhaps laser cap usage needs to be adjusted - that's my point. That's always been my point. I've basically had no other point but that. Anything else I've stated was probably stated to support that point.

What I'm saying seems to be supported by the balance changes I've seen in lasers and Amarr ships over the years. It seems that the devs realize what I'm saying, and have been making small changes here and there.

Try to spend some time observing a laser heavy fleet fight. There will be some in FW and you can always pop over to RvB space and watch Mallers online. When you see how well a fleet of laser boats slap the living pish out of anything within range in a coordinated attack you will see how truly potent lasers can be. They're great on gatecamps too. Amarr aren't a solo friendly race but they excel in fleets. Nothing gets it's dps down like a laser. Nothing can adapt it's range like a laser. Missiles come close but they never have the same facemelt. There isn't a cruiser better adapted to close fleet brawling than the maller. Lasers have a high running cost because of the sheer volume of space that they can dominate.