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EvE Online: Odyssey!!!

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Dave stark
#361 - 2013-03-25 15:40:11 UTC
Quintessen wrote:
That's why I was referring to making it something that you don't have to click on constantly -- i.e. automation -- but does require thinking.


and what sort of "thinking" does the current system require other than "mindlessly click the same button over and over"?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#362 - 2013-03-25 15:54:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:

No, it's pretty spot on. Come on, high skills, expensive equipment and implants aside, once you do it a couple of dozen times the mystic is gone. After the umpteenth thousandth time you're ready to give your right testicle if only you didn't have to press f1 x number of times to launch your probes and then have to configure their arrangement by hand. Sure, there are techniques you develop over time of say a couple of months with higher level skills. Beyond that, there's nothing except tedium.


Then why not focus on the PVE then? Once you've done one mission/site/anomaly, they are all the same, and no amount of player skills can change it. And PVE is something that takes hours from most people's weekly playtime, scanning only a few minutes per system.

Travelling is another mundane, terribly boring task and time sink.

Instead of again fixing what is not broken, CCP should introduce more automation to PVE, and make travelling faster or mroe interesting.

Surely a ship can automate the destruction of rats in some way, or at least targeting and shooting. Currently the PVE system offers nothing but tedium, and it takes a muc larger chunk of average players time than scanning.

Ranger 1 wrote:
As an add on to this, and with all due respect given to those that are highly skilled with the current system, I'll reiterate that a lot of that tedium would be relieved if you didn't have to go through the same steps for every little thing you want to scan down. Some things should be either automatic (ships approaching within a certain range), or at least fairly extensively automated, allowing you to do other things while the scanning is going on. In the case of Dscan clicking it repeatedly is somewhat pointless.

Now for the more difficult targets, hard to detect anomalies or ships actively trying to hide their signatures in various ways, that could easily take existing mechanics a bit further and become a true game of cat and mouse (particularly in the later case). The trick of course to make the process challenging and rewarding, without making it frustrating... and keeping the element of actual personal skill involved instead of just full skills and best equipment... as was pointed out still has a valid place in any modification of the current system. I suppose the emphasis should be on more strategic thinking and less on tweaking and fiddling, if you take my meaning.

We are all familiar with SciFi that involves both automatic sensor sweeps (usually proximity sensors) and also the capability for detailed searching and analysis of a given area... often looking for a specific thing but sometimes just searching for anything out of the ordinary. I think that should be the ultimate goal, it would make sense, be familiar to us, and would be very entertaining. ESPECIALLY if a wide variety of new anomalies, belts, and other stellar phenomena is introduced to keep things varied and interesting. It could also solve several game mechanic issues (sniper fleets being pointless) and perhaps add a deeper strategic level to many fleet engagement.

It might, just might, also enable the ability to warp to specific points in a system without needing to use celestial objects to do so. Other than close tactical bookmarks, all points we warp to (safe spots) are made by creating bookmarks mid way between various celestial objects (often scanned anomalies as well). I'm not sure why, but for some reason I think that we may soon see the ability to pick a set of coordinates within a solar system and simply warp there. Probably wishful thinking, but I suppose we'll see when more info is released.


These changes would make catching people impossible.

Does local make catching people impossible?
Does D Scan make catching people impossible?

I'll agree, if the fine details are botched it would be a bad thing... but if properly handled you'd end up with the same situation you have now. The unprepared would still get snared, while the alert may get away. Especially if there are steps that both the hunter and the hunted can take to enhance their chances of success.

The difference would be the process would be much more intuitive and less tedious, more of a mind game than a click fest.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#363 - 2013-03-25 16:01:49 UTC
Yes, local greatly reduces the chances of catching people, but D-Scan does not, because some people don't use it. If it would be automatic, everyone would see approaching ships and simply warp out.

Furthermore finding targets and analyzing the system with the current D-scan is a player skill. I don't get how your idea would make it more of a mind game, sounds more like it would remove the need for any player skills.

.
Ginger Barbarella
#364 - 2013-03-25 16:02:24 UTC
Blake Gates Heleneto wrote:
They may have outdone themselves.


I agree... the number of new bugs will prove to be EPIC!!!

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2013-03-25 16:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Quintessen
Dave Stark wrote:
Quintessen wrote:
That's why I was referring to making it something that you don't have to click on constantly -- i.e. automation -- but does require thinking.


and what sort of "thinking" does the current system require other than "mindlessly click the same button over and over"?


It doesn't require any thinking and that's why it must go. I think people have known for a long time that the basic fact-finding and intelligence gameplay in this game was in sore need of revamp. The problem is that there are multiple sides vying for advantage and they're often in opposition. Currently the status quo favors those not wanting to fight. Local as intelligence tool is a widely debated topic here. Ultimately CCP is going to have to come up with a solution to the problem, but annoyingly it is one of those problems that needs to be fixed in large chunks. You simply cannot remove local or do a major revamp until all the other pieces are in place.

D-scan is a useful tool, but frankly it's also a tool that you don't need to think about. That should change. I'm not going to get into how since clearly CCP already has stuff in the pipe and what would be the point. We'll need to see where they go with this before we can comment on positives and negatives.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#366 - 2013-03-25 16:10:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Roime wrote:
Yes, local greatly reduces the chances of catching people, but D-Scan does not, because some people don't use it. If it would be automatic, everyone would see approaching ships and simply warp out.

Furthermore finding targets and analyzing the system with the current D-scan is a player skill. I don't get how your idea would make it more of a mind game, sounds more like it would remove the need for any player skills.



Any sort of proximity scan that was automated would not be a very long range scan. In other words if you get a blip and are aligned you'll probably make it out... but if you are sitting still or incorrectly aligned you are very likely to get caught. In fact an automatic proximity scanner that you just turn on would tend to engender a strong sense of false security for many. Smile

A system like the above would have little or nothing to do with finding targets or analyzing a system. Those tasks would need to be handled differently, just as various probes (which of course will still be used, albeit possibly in a different way) are handled differently than the current D Scan.

I think you are hearing the words "Automated Scanner" and applying that to all types of scanning, which is not what is likely to happen.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Quintessen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#367 - 2013-03-25 16:12:02 UTC
Roime wrote:
Yes, local greatly reduces the chances of catching people, but D-Scan does not, because some people don't use it. If it would be automatic, everyone would see approaching ships and simply warp out.

Furthermore finding targets and analyzing the system with the current D-scan is a player skill. I don't get how your idea would make it more of a mind game, sounds more like it would remove the need for any player skills.



Automatic does not mean continuous. A cycle time of say 10 seconds or 30 seconds wouldn't give players an overt advantage. But in any case the analysis is where the skill comes in, not the hitting of the button.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#368 - 2013-03-25 16:24:48 UTC
Okay, here is a rough example of how it "could" be handled.

I'm sitting in a belt mining. I turn on my ships proximity sensors which will scan a couple of AU out every few seconds. If I stay aligned to something I should have enough time to get out if I get a blip that looks like trouble. If I'm caught in the middle of changing alignment or sitting still I'm very likely to get ganked.

I'm looking for miners to gank so I warp to a point perhaps 5 AU (out of proximity scan range) out from a likely belt and use my ship sensors to do a focused (and longer range) scan of that belt. If I choose to I can sit there and wait to get a blip (by leaving the scanner running) or I can move to 5AU of the next most likely belt.

I'm hunting an enemy fleet somewhere in this system. They are at none of the likely spots and we have probes out covering wide area's a space with no hits so far. I decide to send a probe to each planet in system as it is likely they are hanging out next to a celestial body that is masking thier presence It will take a while, but eventually they will be found. If this doesn't produce results then I next send my probes to the various moons, and eventually even to anomolies or dead space area's in system.

Note that ship sensors would not give you a precise warp in point, so no automatcially getting on top of the target with them if they are sniping. However probes would provide a warp in, but would take longer (especially near a celestial object that would interfere with scan time and accuracy of your probes. Also, some probes could be used to scan broad area's while others are used to scan specifically around celestial objects and the interference the throw out. Similar to what we have now, but more intuitive and if proper defensive steps are taken could take longer.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#369 - 2013-03-25 16:38:15 UTC
Posting in what has become a stealth 'get rid of Local" thread.....yet again.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#370 - 2013-03-25 16:44:51 UTC
I'm finding it hilarious how your all discussing changes to D-scan when they are talking about exploration, and probe scanning is a much larger part of that then the D-scan is :P
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#371 - 2013-03-25 16:45:45 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Posting in what has become a stealth 'get rid of Local" thread.....yet again.

Heh, yeah kinda. Smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#372 - 2013-03-25 16:47:04 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Posting in what has become a stealth 'get rid of Local" thread.....yet again.


It doesn't matter how often people talk about getting rid of local, since CCP has made it abundantly clear that it will never change, though.
Kitty Bear
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#373 - 2013-03-25 16:47:59 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
iskflakes wrote:


Maybe we'll get the long awaited removal of subcaps and highsec that the game so desperately needs.



Sad the people who want to kill the game by eliminating the playerbase. Why do they even bother to play? Do they even ? Or do they just pay to Forum Troll ?


Kobold not a Troll ... forum kobold's are small, insignificant and easily ignored.
Pelea Ming
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#374 - 2013-03-25 16:49:19 UTC
Kitty Bear wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
iskflakes wrote:


Maybe we'll get the long awaited removal of subcaps and highsec that the game so desperately needs.



Sad the people who want to kill the game by eliminating the playerbase. Why do they even bother to play? Do they even ? Or do they just pay to Forum Troll ?


Kobold not a Troll ... forum kobold's are small, insignificant and easily ignored.


rather delayed, and overall not worth commenting on again, most of us simply chose to ignore his idiocy and move on to more intelligent things :)
Reyisa
#375 - 2013-03-25 17:36:06 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
People are excited about them fixing crappy interfaces that have been that way for years? Oops

Fixing broken legacy code is not an expansion....
Neither is another NERF....(Rebalancing) Lol



Awe the bitter tears of veterans. Does it feel good, to mock and cry? Why do you play at all?
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#376 - 2013-03-25 17:38:45 UTC
Roime wrote:
[quote=Mr Kidd]Travelling is another mundane, terribly boring task and time sink.

Instead of again fixing what is not broken, CCP should introduce more automation to PVE, and make travelling faster or mroe interesting.

Surely a ship can automate the destruction of rats in some way, or at least targeting and shooting. Currently the PVE system offers nothing but tedium, and it takes a muc larger chunk of average players time than scanning.


Yes, being able to traverse light-years in minutes is a terrible inconvenience. In fact, why bother with spaceships at all?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#377 - 2013-03-25 17:39:40 UTC
Quote:
Odyssey will greatly expand the opportunities for players to explore all corners of the massive EVE Universe and its 7,929 solar systems.


Didn't read through all the posts to see if this was brought up, but to get to 7929 systems you have to include Jove space

...and the post says all corners...
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2013-03-25 17:51:43 UTC
Berluth Luthian wrote:
Quote:
Odyssey will greatly expand the opportunities for players to explore all corners of the massive EVE Universe and its 7,929 solar systems.


Didn't read through all the posts to see if this was brought up, but to get to 7929 systems you have to include Jove space

...and the post says all corners...


I think if ever there was a time to open up Jove space, the 10th aniversary would be it.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#379 - 2013-03-25 17:56:56 UTC
Reyisa wrote:
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
People are excited about them fixing crappy interfaces that have been that way for years? Oops

Fixing broken legacy code is not an expansion....
Neither is another NERF....(Rebalancing) Lol



Awe the bitter tears of veterans. Does it feel good, to mock and cry? Why do you play at all?

There are times when I enjoy the Beekeepers posts, but he does suffer from a selective memory disorder.

He remembers a time when sweeping Jesus features were the focus of every release... but he fails to remember the problems that caused and the public outcry for CCP to focus a large percentage of Dev resources (time and money) on fixing legacy code issues (and iterate on existing systems) instead.

He remembers some overpowered ships have been nerfed a bit, but fails to remember that just as many (more actually) sub par ships were buffed so that both groups ended up in better balance than ever before... to the point where combat and tactics have been almost completely revitalized.

If CCP said "We are only going to work on the projects Beekeeper Bob has authorized" his very next post would be to decry developer favoritism.

It's as if he is suffering from both Alzheimer's and Tourette's syndrome, so consider him in need of our understanding and help him receive proper care.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#380 - 2013-03-25 19:13:28 UTC
Roime wrote:
Furthermore finding targets and analyzing the system with the current D-scan is a player skill. I don't get how your idea would make it more of a mind game, sounds more like it would remove the need for any player skills.


I'm totally with you in that currently D-scan is a player skill. But you gotta remember that EVE is, supposedly, a game. And games are meant to be challenging and fun. Not tedious and repetitive. Which is what D-scan becomes when you learn to use it. Beyond a certain point, you use it in a semi-comatose state. Also, the scan itself is pretty heavily limited by its weak implementation (lack of FoF filter, for instance).

Also, how much unnecessary complexity and "busy work" do you want in a game? Should you be required to manually calculate and enter the entry vectors and co-ordinates before you can warp jump? I'm sure it would be pretty challenging, and forgetting to carry a digit could land you inside a sun or something. But would it be FUN? Would it be challenging? Or would this be more of the same tedious busy-work that you've done a million times, and it ceased to be any real challenge 999,937 uses ago?