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Mining: Working As Intended

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Dave Stark
#41 - 2013-03-24 13:16:31 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:

stuff


In general, with the botters being gone, people are getting a "living wage" now from mining the lowends (veld, etc). The trouble is, that since the botters were depressing the prices so much for so long, many would-be miners either

- quit eve
- did it long enough to bootstrap something else (missioning, manufacturing)
- did it until they heard about something else that makes boatloads more ISK (incursions/w-space)

So, now there aren't "enough" miners to provide that downward market pressure...


i'll gladly put isk on the drone regions providing more minerals than the botters ever did.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#42 - 2013-03-24 13:32:48 UTC
Velicitia wrote:


In general, with the botters being gone....



Best laugh of the morning.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Velicitia
XS Tech
#43 - 2013-03-24 14:10:54 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


In general, with the botters being gone....



Best laugh of the morning.



ugh "gone" was supposed to be in quotes Oops

@ Dave -- who's to say the source of drone poo wasn't botters either.

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#44 - 2013-03-24 14:27:18 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:


In general, with the botters being gone....



Best laugh of the morning.



ugh "gone" was supposed to be in quotes Oops

@ Dave -- who's to say the source of drone poo wasn't botters either.

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.



More ISK for me. Smile

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Zircon Dasher
#45 - 2013-03-24 16:09:08 UTC
Velicitia wrote:

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.


Pre-nerf factors definitely played into the (un)popularity of mining as an income stream. I agree wholeheartedly. One of my points was that when the nerf happened, the many people generating minerals via drone poo did not move to mining (they found other things to do too). So there was an exaggerated gap after drone poo was done away with.

What is interesting to consider is why player response has been slow to respond to the mineral market incentives. Meaning what factors have kept people from moving back to mineral generation in sufficient enough numbers to put that downward pressure on prices post drone-poo nerf? Or you can take the counterfactual route and ask why the price has not responded negatively to the influx of miners.

Most likely answering neither question, individually, is sufficient to explain our current situation. If, however, the interest (mine) is how to create a healthy ecosystems in all spaces, then the answers to these questions are important. Dave's concern over ISK/HR is important, given that people NOT mining can cause the 'best' ISK/HR to shift between security spaces, because it creates certain hurdles. Focusing on concerns over the local (un)availability of minerals necessary for production creates other hurdles. Unfortunately, if you focus on short-term fixes to one set of questions you can very quickly exacerbate the problems that stem from the other set.

All in all, it was a tangent from the OP based only upon my own interests.... asking the questions that shed light on where things go in the future, of course, is of interest to anyone that mines (anywhere). I am a big softy and think it would be unfortunate if people geared up thinking our current situation is stable, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them in 3mo.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#46 - 2013-03-24 16:56:26 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:


What is interesting to consider is why player response has been slow to respond to the mineral market incentives. Meaning what factors have kept people from moving back to mineral generation in sufficient enough numbers to put that downward pressure on prices post drone-poo nerf? Or you can take the counterfactual route and ask why the price has not responded negatively to the influx of miners.



You obviously have no idea how much Trit and Pyerite is required for Capital Ships, especially Titans.

Believe me they are mining it as fast as possible. Some days I feel like one of the few non-ISBoxers.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Zircon Dasher
#47 - 2013-03-24 20:17:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:


What is interesting to consider is why player response has been slow to respond to the mineral market incentives. Meaning what factors have kept people from moving back to mineral generation in sufficient enough numbers to put that downward pressure on prices post drone-poo nerf? Or you can take the counterfactual route and ask why the price has not responded negatively to the influx of miners.



You obviously have no idea how much Trit and Pyerite is required for Capital Ships, especially Titans.

Believe me they are mining it as fast as possible. Some days I feel like one of the few non-ISBoxers.


I am well aware. You do know how much of the drone-poo was going specifically to caps,supers,and titans...... right? And when the nerf happened, mineral price did not follow the production decline. I cant imagine why not! Roll

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#48 - 2013-03-24 20:19:36 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
And when the nerf happened, mineral price decline did not follow the production decline.



Decline in the production of Caps and Supercaps ? Seriously ?

I think not.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Zircon Dasher
#49 - 2013-03-24 20:23:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
And when the nerf happened, mineral price decline did not follow the production decline.

I think not.


I think that over half of drivers don't have a license.

Unfortunately for both of us official statistics say otherwise.Oops

Less Snark: A more recent uptick in production I beleive. But I was referring to the months immediately following. That alone tells a lot about how cap production has limited affect on market prices of minerals. Like how they don't usually 'show up' in the pricing.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#50 - 2013-03-25 10:00:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Velicitia wrote:

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.


Pre-nerf factors definitely played into the (un)popularity of mining as an income stream. I agree wholeheartedly. One of my points was that when the nerf happened, the many people generating minerals via drone poo did not move to mining (they found other things to do too). So there was an exaggerated gap after drone poo was done away with.

What is interesting to consider is why player response has been slow to respond to the mineral market incentives. Meaning what factors have kept people from moving back to mineral generation in sufficient enough numbers to put that downward pressure on prices post drone-poo nerf? Or you can take the counterfactual route and ask why the price has not responded negatively to the influx of miners.

Most likely answering neither question, individually, is sufficient to explain our current situation. If, however, the interest (mine) is how to create a healthy ecosystems in all spaces, then the answers to these questions are important. Dave's concern over ISK/HR is important, given that people NOT mining can cause the 'best' ISK/HR to shift between security spaces, because it creates certain hurdles. Focusing on concerns over the local (un)availability of minerals necessary for production creates other hurdles. Unfortunately, if you focus on short-term fixes to one set of questions you can very quickly exacerbate the problems that stem from the other set.

All in all, it was a tangent from the OP based only upon my own interests.... asking the questions that shed light on where things go in the future, of course, is of interest to anyone that mines (anywhere). I am a big softy and think it would be unfortunate if people geared up thinking our current situation is stable, only to have the rug pulled out from underneath them in 3mo.



Well, it goes back to ISK/hr for most people. Why mine at an income of 2-10m ISK/hr, when you can keep running L4s at 50m ISK/hr ... or Incursions at 100m ISK/hr? (note -- all income numbers hypothetical) Furthermore, the "smarter" players who're reading the forums (either these ones, or other eve-o ones, or other eve-o related sites such as EN24 or mittani news) "know" that if you're in a barge, you will get ganked with 100% certainty.

Mostly because I don't care about ISK/hr when mining, I kill whatever is in the belt; though I do show some preference for things that are being slow to fill. For example, if Isogen is taking too long, I'm going to be shooting for the Omber (or Plag if the market isn't coming through for my Mex, etc).

The spreadsheet jockeys among us will say "but it's better to mine [rock of the day] and just buy the [mineral]!" ... which is all well and true, but I don't "need" the ISK. I need the ******* mineral!

Now, in the time that I (and I assume some of you, though Dave, Krixtal, and Zircon are '09/10/11 characters/alts) have been playing, there has also been a paradigm shift of sorts. When I was new ('07/8), the old timers were 4 years in ... the bots were "fewer"(in theory), and there were price ceilings on a number of the minerals still (shuttles for trit, and probably other things as well).

However, with that said, even the combat pilots that I knew (friends who dragged me into EVE, and their corpies, etc) were able to mine. And not just "yeah, I can because the game gave me these useless skills" -- but had enough SP sunk into the industrial tree to fit up a mining Rokh/Apoc with T2 lasers. Sure, they urged me to train some PVP skills at the outset* -- but never once was there a "ha, you want to MINE!!?!" stance from them.

At the end of the first 3 months (because ~learning skills~), I could fly a mining cruiser (Vexor) and a combat cruiser (Thorax) reasonably well, had reasonably good drone skills, and was on my way to a retriever (remember, in those days, it took approximately a two to two and a half months to get into a retreiver). I sucked hardcore at PVP, but the corp would undock and shoot to kill. We didn't pull the "hide in station/don't log on for a week" gimmick that is so prevalent these days.

These days, there's no middle ground. You're a miner with no combat/fitting/support/whatever skills, or you're a combat pilot wherein your only experience with mining is a shitfit Viator (or equivalent) or Navitas* (or equivalent*). Corps can survive and thrive on PVP (and missions) alone, getting everything from the markets...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Dave Stark
#51 - 2013-03-25 10:18:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Velicitia wrote:
@ Dave -- who's to say the source of drone poo wasn't botters either.

my (poorly made) point being that there was a vacuum created because a lot of players who may have been miners (or stayed as miners) were pushed out due to the bots/drone poo/whatever.


there isn't a vacuum. [ok that's badly worded but i know what i mean]
there are more players mining now than there has been since whatever time span was on that silly little graph ccp put in a dev blog a while ago.
also, most of which in high sec.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#52 - 2013-03-25 11:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Velicitia wrote:
Furthermore, the "smarter" players who're reading the forums (either these ones, or other eve-o ones, or other eve-o related sites such as EN24 or mittani news) "know" that if you're in a barge, you will get ganked with 100% certainty.




Hmmmmm.....100% ? Like all the time ? Last time I was ganked in a Barge was over 2 years ago.

And that was before I could use 2 Barges, and was distracted from what was going on by fighting off rats.

Still mostly my fault for not fleeing when the scouting Cheetah uncloaked, but that's how we learn I guess.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Dave Stark
#53 - 2013-03-25 13:51:46 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Furthermore, the "smarter" players who're reading the forums (either these ones, or other eve-o ones, or other eve-o related sites such as EN24 or mittani news) "know" that if you're in a barge, you will get ganked with 100% certainty.




Hmmmmm.....100% ? Like all the time ? Last time I was ganked in a Barge was over 2 years ago.

And that was before I could use 2 Barges, and was distracted from what was going on by fighting off rats.

Still mostly my fault for not fleeing when the scouting Cheetah uncloaked, but that's how we learn I guess.


this, barge ganking isn't as common as people would cry and have you believe.

not to mention ccp have already said that it's at an all time low.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#54 - 2013-03-25 13:55:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:

not to mention ccp have already said that it's at an all time low.



Yup. Now that Macks (and Hulks) can fit Invuln Shields and Shield Boostesr and be swarming with Shield Repair Drones. Makes things a bit more challenging most indeed.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Dave Stark
#55 - 2013-03-25 13:59:42 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

not to mention ccp have already said that it's at an all time low.



Yup. Now that Macks (and Hulks) can fit Invuln Shields and Shield Boostesr and be swarming with Shield Repair Drones. Makes things a bit more challenging most indeed.


or the fact that you can mine in a retriever which will mine better than a mackinaw fit with a damage control, and you won't even bat an eyelid if you do get ganked because they're that cheap and disposable.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#56 - 2013-03-25 14:04:14 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
Furthermore, the "smarter" players who're reading the forums (either these ones, or other eve-o ones, or other eve-o related sites such as EN24 or mittani news) "know" that if you're in a barge, you will get ganked with 100% certainty.




Hmmmmm.....100% ? Like all the time ? Last time I was ganked in a Barge was over 2 years ago.

And that was before I could use 2 Barges, and was distracted from what was going on by fighting off rats.

Still mostly my fault for not fleeing when the scouting Cheetah uncloaked, but that's how we learn I guess.


this, barge ganking isn't as common as people would cry and have you believe.

not to mention ccp have already said that it's at an all time low.



Uh, yeah ... that was my point guys -- EN24, Mittani, forums, blogs, etc create a much more bleak picture than what is true. Hence the usage of quotation marks around the words smarter and know in my post.

@ Dave -- Can you clarify what you mean about the bot removal not leaving a vacuum (though, I suppose "deficit" is a better term)? Also, source on miner numbers going up would be awesome, as I don't recall seeing that devblog (or, more likely, I skimmed right over it).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Dave Stark
#57 - 2013-03-25 14:07:30 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
@ Dave -- Can you clarify what you mean about the bot removal not leaving a vacuum (though, I suppose "deficit" is a better term)? Also, source on miner numbers going up would be awesome, as I don't recall seeing that devblog (or, more likely, I skimmed right over it).


i don't think any one was really "pushed out of mining", but there's no doubt there's a "deficit" of minerals in comparison to what there was, hence why mineral and ship prices have generally almost doubled since the change, not quite double now things have settled down and tiericide speculation is almost over.

there was a dev blog a while ago, while it didn't explicitly say "there are more players mining" the volume of ore mined had increased, which implies there are more miners now. the jump was very noticable in the ore volume mined in high sec.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#58 - 2013-03-25 16:38:38 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Velicitia wrote:
@ Dave -- Can you clarify what you mean about the bot removal not leaving a vacuum (though, I suppose "deficit" is a better term)? Also, source on miner numbers going up would be awesome, as I don't recall seeing that devblog (or, more likely, I skimmed right over it).


i don't think any one was really "pushed out of mining", but there's no doubt there's a "deficit" of minerals in comparison to what there was, hence why mineral and ship prices have generally almost doubled since the change, not quite double now things have settled down and tiericide speculation is almost over.

there was a dev blog a while ago, while it didn't explicitly say "there are more players mining" the volume of ore mined had increased, which implies there are more miners now. the jump was very noticable in the ore volume mined in high sec.



That's probably why I couldn't recall it then. Cool

In general, I think "pushed out" may have been too strong of a phrase ... though people these days seem to be more focused on ISK/hr rather than "hey, as a corp, we're gonna do this". And all that ends up doing is fracturing people within the corp.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
#59 - 2013-03-25 23:07:02 UTC
Mining post, needs locked zero content.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#60 - 2013-03-25 23:46:15 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Mining post, needs locked zero content.


Not funny.

Just tired.

Really really tired.

Unimaginative.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882