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Replaceing "bonus to heavy and heavy assault missile kinetic damage"

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Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#21 - 2013-03-25 12:21:06 UTC
To expand on this a bit into my territory of ships, the Gallente, I think the reason for the absurdly high kinetic resists is a combination between plugging the hotspots that the Caldari try to exploit and a general added resistance to shrapnel, which I assume is the way kinetic damage is applied from missiles.

Since we don't have any "x% reduced kinetic damage from Caldari ships" but a uniform reduction from all sources of kinetic damage, i can only assume that this resistance just happened to work very well against bullets as well, since the minmatar would have no reason to try to exploit kinetic holes on Gallente ships, but rather the explosive one that they capitalize on, but the Gallente have not taken very much into consideration because the war is primarily against Caldari

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Bubanni
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2013-03-25 14:01:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.

We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.

All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).

We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed.


Wouldn't increasing the missiles overall speed in some way decrease the overall server stress in larger battles with lots of missiles? and objects in space? Because faster missiles would = less time the missiles are an object in space?... The missiles travel time has always been the downside of missiles mainly, and + side always been that they always hit when in range (unless the target is moving too fast.)

But would it really be bad if say, HAMs and HML fx would have a base speed of like 100% faster than currently? like 8000 m/s for heavy missiles and so on. and ofc adjust the flight time to match the distance.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-03-25 14:07:23 UTC
Bubanni wrote:

But would it really be bad if say, HAMs and HML fx would have a base speed of like 100% faster than currently? like 8000 m/s for heavy missiles and so on. and ofc adjust the flight time to match the distance.


I think the bigger issue comes from having to create and remove them from inventories rather than what they are doing while they are out in space. so assuming they are still firing at the same rate the flight time wouldn't really have much of a effect against scaling, unless everyone was firing at the same time.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-03-25 14:11:14 UTC
monkfish2345 wrote:
Bubanni wrote:

But would it really be bad if say, HAMs and HML fx would have a base speed of like 100% faster than currently? like 8000 m/s for heavy missiles and so on. and ofc adjust the flight time to match the distance.


I think the bigger issue comes from having to create and remove them from inventories rather than what they are doing while they are out in space. so assuming they are still firing at the same rate the flight time wouldn't really have much of a effect against scaling, unless everyone was firing at the same time.


indeed a better solution is to decrease the base ROF on all missiles and buff the alpha damage.
Also nerf the range on rockets and HAMS especially as they have about twice the range they should which is why HAMS and torps have the same range atm.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Hannott Thanos
Squadron 15
#25 - 2013-03-25 15:03:38 UTC
Missiles already got a sweet speed buff in the latest rework

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#26 - 2013-03-25 15:13:45 UTC
Prib Afuran wrote:
They just balanced the drake.

And didn't do as good job at it as with cruisers, imo.

Harby, Myrm, Brutix, still not gonna be seen as much as Drakes. The AAR is not enough to make local armor repper bonuses worth using in multi-ship engagements, otherwise known as the vast majority of eve combat. The Cyclone will get use because of ASB. The Ferox will get use because of its resist bonus and a range bonus that can make blasters more adapatable. Ditto the Prophecy, resist bonus and drone versatility. And lastly the Hurricane is still seeing use. I confess I do not know why.

Fozzie could you show us some new usage stats since the BC rebalance? You had them for before. And it was clearly Drakes by a mile. Has that changed any?

Also, I will echo the concern over rocket and HAM range. Especially when you add new range effects for missiles on TC, TE, and TD.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#27 - 2013-03-25 19:03:42 UTC
I don't really get why rockets and torps need to reload so much. I can kill just about one ship with them before having to reload. With blasters or projectiles I could probably take out a whole gang before having to reload. Torps could do with smaller ammo size. My raven really wants me to carry 16 different stacks of ammo, but I can only get a couple of hundred of each type since it's so huge and expensive.
Anthar Thebess
#28 - 2013-03-27 15:11:26 UTC
Overall missiles need some love.

For example HM - in most of the cases there is no reason to use T2.
Bigger dps ... but you will see it only on BS class ship.
Try to hit Cruiser or BC - faction will give you bigger damage.

HAM - my luck or just some broken mechanic.
Tried to use faction / t2 version to shoot elite frigates.
It was HARD! , but while using HM they died after 1 - 2 racks.
And yes frigates where well in range.

Cruise missles - nice range but with Tier Battle Cruisers not so important any more.
DPS ... eh.

Torpedoes - useless outside bombers.
Range, speed, and explosion velocity.

My biggest mistake in eve is investing skills in Missiles.






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Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#29 - 2013-03-27 15:38:43 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Overall missiles need some love.

For example HM - in most of the cases there is no reason to use T2.
Bigger dps ... but you will see it only on BS class ship.
Try to hit Cruiser or BC - faction will give you bigger damage.

HAM - my luck or just some broken mechanic.
Tried to use faction / t2 version to shoot elite frigates.
It was HARD! , but while using HM they died after 1 - 2 racks.
And yes frigates where well in range.

Cruise missles - nice range but with Tier Battle Cruisers not so important any more.
DPS ... eh.

Torpedoes - useless outside bombers.
Range, speed, and explosion velocity.

My biggest mistake in eve is investing skills in Missiles.

Your biggest mistake is using wrong weapon after wrong targets. I don't have any issues with frigates in my Sacrilege - they pop in no time.

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#30 - 2013-03-27 16:02:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.

We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.

All lag considerations aside, we consider RoF and damage bonuses to be two separate and useful parts of our toolbox for ship balancing. RoF bonuses give more dps but less alpha and more ammo consumption. Damage bonuses can be done to either one damage type, all damage types, or even to different damage types in different amounts (like the Hookbill).

We plan to continue using both types of bonuses as needed.


Could you please consider giving the Drake (in fact, all single damage type bonussed ships) the same kind of halved bonus to other damage types as the Hookbill has? That would help a great deal in PvE, without making a big difference in PvP.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed
Jacid
Corvix.
#31 - 2013-03-27 16:30:08 UTC
One of the previous posters mentioned the idea of halving the firing rate but doubling the volley.. i could see where this would be a logical and lag reducing effect on missiles in fleet fights. It would make sense from a lore perspective as well.

My 2 Cents
Ersahi Kir
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2013-03-27 17:18:05 UTC
I guess my silly idea that the bonus to kinetic missiles on many Caldari ships was because kinetic damage is the Caldari racial damage type, and they needed to balance out that missiles can use any damage type with Tech II and faction missiles.

Only thing I really don't like about it is it often locks you into that one damage type for many PvE things, because the DPS you lose by not using that 50% damage bonus often isn't returned by using racial damage type weaknesses. But whatever, I don't really have a horse in this race.
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
#33 - 2013-03-28 14:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Lag is a consideration for missile RoF, but at this point mainly just for smaller missiles.

We generally avoid rocket RoF bonuses for server load reasons, and when we're giving larger percentage bonuses like the 10% damage bonus on the drake we will avoid doing those with RoF because -50% RoF on HMs and HAMs could become a load problem. However we're perfectly fine with giving 5% per level RoF bonuses to cruiser sized weapons for the most part.

HAMgu wants to have a word with you.
1.5sec cycle time for missiles is just not normal as well as 1000dps@30-40km for cruiser size weapons while maintaining good speed/sig ratio and better tanking ability. Double rocket/missile damage across the board while also double their cycle time.

Less server load for you and better alpha for players - win/win situation.

Opinions are like assholes. Everybody got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks.
Aischa Montagne
Blut-Klauen-Clan
#34 - 2013-04-21 08:37:32 UTC
Thanks Fozzie for the technical answer.
It was not ment to argue on the changes of the Drake in general. All missleboats I checked had only one type of damage Bonuses. This makes changeing Damage type now almost useless. I have less problems with scourgemissles Shooting into Resitances then with switching Missles accordingly to Mission I fly.
My PvP experience is little, and I can not judge this. I think the input in this thread enlightent me a little too. Thanks to all in this point.

I assumed you wanted a different behaviour of the weapon systems, I was not concidering impact on code performance.
It is quite annoying to have a choice in damage types but it is not worth it.

So it is not about the changes on the Drake. The Changes on the Drake was my initial entry point to think about it. I do not think any other Missleboat will have differ in this point.

Getting a single damagetype bonus while beeing able to deal different type is in general a lousy, inefficent way to trail bonuses.
Especially if your Skills are not makeingeeing everything irrelevant.

Maybe the design is on max skills balanced.

A Compromise Idea would be a module to shift the Damage Bonus to another Damage type. (No other Bonus in first draft.)
Maybe this is not a realistic addition, but it would enhance gameplay, by not increase more performance killers on the Code.
I cannot messure the impact on PvP, but I think it would be great in Missionrunning.

I want to stress the fact my struggles are not with the Drake change. I like the Drake a lot. (Will checkout cyclone however, only that I do not like minmatar design at all. And someone has to stress the fact that how thinks look like is important for Gamefun. Maybe not effcient but Fun!

Thanks to all again for the lot of views and Ideas.
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