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Amarr: Least Populated Militia

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Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#41 - 2013-03-25 11:33:07 UTC
The VC's wrote:

I couldn't agree more, but that is a lot of work for devs who are probably a bit burnt out trying to iterate on a system that still hasn't fully realised its objective. Restricting mods that prevent pvp in fw would be a simple fix and it would create more pvp.



FW plexes are designed just to allow people to evade fights. Is not a defect, CCP just designed so.

This filter is given by the plex gates and restriction. is not a matter of modules, cloack, WCS or whatever. And guess what? works as indeed.

This is what allow you to solo in Incursus. And when someone approach your gate to decide if engage or not. So if someone is an ******* and come with a fleet for your solo frigate you are not "forced" to gift them with a free kill.

This is what encourage people to be reasonable and ship down if they want a fight, and not just to blob.

Removing this "filters" woulldn't encourage fights, would only discourage solo/small gangs and push for blobs.

So, ok to promote incentives and penalities for fighting or avoinding it, but forcing it by specific FW game mechanics isn't a good idea and doesn't work anyway.

Beside farmers aren't a real problem, is only a topic brought in the forum each time some faction fall down to T1 to justify it.
Merely Runaway
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2013-03-25 11:42:12 UTC
The Amarr just need to get their act together, stop whinging on the forums, run some decent fleets and get recruiting.

My 3 year old whinges less and, surprise surprise, has more friends than the Amarr.
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2013-03-25 11:47:39 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
I wouldn't say they allow people to evade fights, just fights on more even terms and the ability to pick your battles somewhat. Wcs's and cloaks do allow people to evade fights. I'm not saying its a flawless idea (griffins online), but it is a relatively simple fix that would allow some increase in pvp.

Fw is a specific feature in a specific place with specific goals. It's not entirely sandbox. Surely anything that means less farmers, more pvp is a good thing.


Ed if you are in fw for the pvp, a change like this wouldn't really affect you much.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#44 - 2013-03-25 12:05:05 UTC
Merely Runaway wrote:
The Amarr just need to get their act together, stop whinging on the forums, run some decent fleets and get recruiting.

My 3 year old whinges less and, surprise surprise, has more friends than the Amarr.


March Totals:
You - 19 kills, one solo
Me - 286 kills, 104 solo

Follow your own advice.
David Devant
CTRL-Q
#45 - 2013-03-25 12:08:21 UTC
It seems daft, but I honestly think that Zarnak's point 3 (i.e. RP reasons around white supremacy) really shouldn't be underestimated. People who play this game generally have reasonable IQs and (in my experience) are rarely facist pigs and don't want to pretend to be one either.

It might be helpful if the story actually evolved rather than staying so static. The empress Jamyl has done a pretty crap job of leading her people. Maybe there could be some reform on the cards? Some mention of terrible Minmatar atrocities.

I know the vast majority will say that they don't care about this sort of thing but actually the 4 race model is sort of a personality test and in my experience players often conform to it.
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#46 - 2013-03-25 12:29:32 UTC
Merely Runaway wrote:
The Amarr just need to get their act together, stop whinging on the forums, run some decent fleets and get recruiting.

My 3 year old whinges less and, surprise surprise, has more friends than the Amarr.


LOL

just LOL.

This propaganda stopped working a while ago, we can clearly look after ourselves in combat. To say we don't run decent fleets is ridiculous and shows you have no idea on the stats for the militias kills and where they come from.

As for recruiting, its hard when no one wants to be a white, religious zealot slaver. Only people that see past this are people that have played for a while and at that point why would someone thats played for a while join a faction that can't earn them isk unless you are in the minority group that do it because there is pvp to be found as soon as you undock.

On that note, for us in the amarr... it literally is a case that you get pvp within 10minutes of the undock. If you want small gang/solo kills amarr FW is a great place to do it. I'm not whinging about this, I ******* love it!
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#47 - 2013-03-25 12:34:15 UTC
The VC's wrote:
I wouldn't say they allow people to evade fights, just fights on more even terms and the ability to pick your battles somewhat. Wcs's and cloaks do allow people to evade fights. I'm not saying its a flawless idea (griffins online), but it is a relatively simple fix that would allow some increase in pvp.


Yes, what I mean is that the option to decide if to evade or pick a fight doesn't come from wcs or any module; it's given by the FW plex design, and is given on purpose.
You can disable WCS and everything, people will keep evading, if they have reasons/interest to. So what's next? disabling D-Scan?

After all we're playing EVE, and in EVE people have the option to warp in safe, use WCS, use cloack and so on, is part of EVE PvP, as well as catching people.

At least in FW evading fights negate a reward and give some penality. Problem here is that de-plexing is long, deadly boring and not rewarding. This is what allow people to easly jump stabbed from a plex to another.

And the system as it is now works fine: FW is the more active PvP and more fun in EvE. can check some stats to see this.

The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#48 - 2013-03-25 14:02:57 UTC
You're taking this out of proportion and context.

You're a pvp-er. I'm a pvp-er. If we decide discretion is the better part of valour and choose not to take a fight by using tools such as dscan and plex restrictions, fine. All working as intended. We don't control our engagements by fitting stabs or cloaks. We don't do that as we both know that seriously affects how deadly our ships are, and are we not out to kill? They are great modules but have limited offensive use.

The Minnie/Amarr number disparity is product of, in part, plex farmers, many of whom are the alts players threw in during last years bonanza and have remained there as fw is still easy isk. They have no intention of providing pvp content, as we do by making ourselves available to be engaged. They do however affect war zone control metrics.

If you are in fw areas to pvp, stabs and cloak restrictions in plexs won't affect you.
If you are in fw areas to farm, it will.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#49 - 2013-03-25 15:25:07 UTC
Every time you use your meh kb stats to argue with someone you look like a ****** and it invalidates your argument even further. Just a bit of advice.Roll

Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Merely Runaway wrote:
The Amarr just need to get their act together, stop whinging on the forums, run some decent fleets and get recruiting.

My 3 year old whinges less and, surprise surprise, has more friends than the Amarr.


March Totals:
You - 19 kills, one solo
Me - 286 kills, 104 solo

Follow your own advice.

nom nom
Merely Runaway
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-03-25 15:43:22 UTC
Christine Peeveepeeski wrote:

"...no one wants to be a white, religious zealot slaver..."

Yep in all honesty I think you may be right. As much as most of the old school in lowsec don't really do the RP thing it probably does have an affect.

Personally I think you should replace the current backstory with something people can really get behind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icTrzUuWlHI

It would only take a day's re-write and they've even got your uniforms "By Vectron's Kindly Claw!"
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#51 - 2013-03-25 16:28:01 UTC
The mechanics CCP implemented for FW is a kind of pendulum. It will always swing between the sides, especially because of the farmers. Farmers tend to go where they can get best ISK/h ratio. So due to "quantum space fluctuations" sooner or later they will all go for one side because this side gets more LP for their activity because of more systems captures. However, over time they will crush the market for LP store items of this faction, which then will make the pendulum swing back to the other side.

tl;tr: Every thing works as designed.
Ginger Barbarella
#52 - 2013-03-25 16:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ginger Barbarella
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
Machiavelli's Nemesis wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
3) Story Line. It's absolutely horrible. Most of us don't roleplay. But choosing the white, religious fanatic, slave owning race? Yeah.... thought so.


Well it does seem to fit, since all the amarr pilots come across as 8 years old, utter crybabies and/or total sperglords.


You have 38 kills for the month and not a single solo kill? Run along Jr. This conversation is for the big dogs.


"Big dogs" whining about--- what were your numbers again?
Quote:
Minmatar Militia - 5751 Pilots
Amarr Militia - 3878 Pilots


Wow. I knew there was a reason I solo my FW alts.

Oh, and offensive plexing my new Amarr FW alt in Minnie space ftw. Already up four Navy Slicers for 2 hours work. If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. Cool

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#53 - 2013-03-25 18:02:36 UTC
I spend quite a bit of time in the trenches. Every day I notice new Minmatar pilots, corps, and even alliances. A lot are farmers. A lot aren't. When Amarr advances I don't see the same surge in numbers. The reason I created this post was simple: Why?

The three points I made in the OP are some of the underlying reasons. The first two points I view as problematic but very secondary in nature to the issue. It would be nice if some the items in the LP store actually made it into the game. It would be nice if certain systems had some flavor to bring to the game.

The problem, as silly as it sounds, comes down to the conflict being portrayed in a pure good vs evil setting. Have the Minmatar genocide a planet or something.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#54 - 2013-03-25 18:42:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
The Minmatar are very morally ambiguous in the lore, it's just that you can't sum up this moral ambiguity in a sentence. So, Minmatar become "Heroic freedom fighters" whereas Amarr become "Slaveowning white spacecatholics".

Regardless, I doubt that's the reason. Minmatar is a popular race, and always has been, whereas Amarr hasn't been popular for many years. While this doesn't inherently mean anything, it means fewer people started as Amarr, fewer people care about the Amarr storyline, fewer people fly Amarr ships, etc... All which make it less likely that any particular person is going to join the Amarr militia.
Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-03-25 18:55:09 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The problem, as silly as it sounds, comes down to the conflict being portrayed in a pure good vs evil setting. Have the Minmatar genocide a planet or something.


They could actually do something with that. Pick an Amarrian FW system that's been under Minmatar occupation for a long time, and do some chronicles about widespread pillaging and indiscriminate revenge attacks against civilians.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#56 - 2013-03-25 18:57:14 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
..The problem, as silly as it sounds, comes down to the conflict being portrayed in a pure good vs evil setting. Have the Minmatar genocide a planet or something.

No, the problem boils down to people not bothering with more than the catch phrases.

You have perhaps seen me refer to them as 'Shakorites', and believe it or not there is a reason.

- Shakor's first order of business after seizing power was to annex (forcefully or under threat of force) the previously free Thukker.
- Then he created his glorious 'transit camps' for refugees (flooding in after Jamyl's emancipation of 9th Gens) and political enemies both, where they could attempt survival until ferried off to Thukker space.
- Next up was disbanding one of the two forums the tribes use to have any sort of cohesiveness, namely the already taxed (ie. strained/overburdened) Senate with Shakor being the only person who could call or a vote .. debates in Senate petered out when no votes other than to solidify Shakor's rule were called.
- Tribes fell back to the traditional Tribal Council which was promptly disbanded as well 'to elect new members to properly represent the post-emancipation (read: post Shakor) Republic .. election has been postponed indifinately with various excuses gives as reason.

Then you have the whole murder of priests and what not as icing on the cake.

As far as I am concerned, CCP was in the process of mixing things up with the Empire showing signs of wearing the White Hat with the hand-wringing hunchback Shakor standings in the shadows.
Similarly in the Gallente/Caldari theatre where you had a military coup and all sorts of nastiness from both sides.

Alas, CCP is as fickle as a child given the choice of just one piece of candy, and the whole thing has been left for years as the lore dept. was dismantled .. some light PC stuff has started up from random folks but if it was the pulse of a vehicular accident I'd pronounce the person dead Big smile
Leper ofBacon
HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN
#57 - 2013-03-25 19:49:43 UTC
The real problem IMO is how punishing it is to the players for a faction to be pushed to t1.

I was in amarr for a few weeks and had a good time but at T1 you ask yourself, why don't I do the precise same thing I'm doing now for the other side and make 3x as much isk?

At T1 you make very little isk and as part of a group of mostly casual players you in reality have very little control over how the war for territory goes outside of a few offensive plexes.

There's no shortage of fine pvp players on the amarr side, ccp just needs to alter it so that there is more incentive to actually swing the territory war the other way (an isk incentive and one that encourages violent contact with the enemy faction). The territorial upgrades are of no value to the majority of players as far as I'm aware.

To make a suggestion, there should be a cap on how low the lp income can drop from offensive plexing and the lp value of defensive plexing should be increased (maybe proportionally to how badly the faction needs it?). Also cloaks should not work in plexes, this is so obvious it hurts my head.

As a disclaimer I don't consider myself a farmer. I go to plexes to get good pvp and also to make isk and will take either one as it comes or however I feel like it.
Mikkir
SHINKETSU Inc.
#58 - 2013-03-25 20:30:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Mikkir
I use to feel bad trading slaves in Amarr, and then I embraced my roots.

If those peasants were equal to me they wouldn't be in my cargo hold. Only hard, often fatal, labor can teach them their position in life. The sooner they accept this the sooner they can be incorporated into the empire.
Derek Wiildstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2013-03-25 20:34:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Derek Wiildstar
Well if numbers are the issue then the amarr could add their boosting alts to the militia Twisted

Amarrain lore is bad. I was hoping for a mix of Islam/catholicism or something like Zoroastrianism. CCP really should hire someone who actually knows religious history and how religions work to do the lore.
Taoist Dragon
School of Applied Knowledge
#60 - 2013-03-25 20:49:10 UTC
Farmer control the WZ always have, alway will.

PVP'ers want a GF not to spin a button for hours on end. This IMO is how it should be.

BUT

The ease in which LP can be converted to isk mean that most of the farmers don't care about the WZ or what faction they are fiighting for.
The LP tiers should follow the shp tiers i.e be removed. Have the warzone control status bar be counded by the number of systems capped not counting system upgrade. System upgrades can still be used as it would allow the militia to upgrade there home systems to be usefull for ancillary isk making etc.
Give all plexes the standard LP rewards for both offensive and defensive.

This would mitigate some of the farming hordes but still allow the dedicated FW players to make enough isk to fund their gameplay. Removal of the teirs would stop the snowball effect (it can be countered as already shown but takes huge effort and risk major burnout) that currently happens and make the wz a more dynamic place.

Also the racial backstory shouldn't be discounted. The slaving while supremsists v the subjecated tribal freedom fighters. If I ddin't like fighting completely outnumbered I would have joined minnies myself (that and my minnie/gal standing were crap before I started FW)

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.