Player Features and Ideas Discussion

i suggest you start reading some stuff .... by definition a battle cruiser is a ship that is close to a battleship in size , mounts battleship weapons , are faster and more agile but they are poorly armored, wait tier 3 battle cruiser fits this description.

Instead of nerfing tier 3 bc why not fix the battleships.... their dps sucks ehp is a joke,it should have at lest 3 4 times the ehp of a battle cruiser.

Grats on getting the job, CCP Rise. :)

Now, on to the task at hand:

Attack Battlecruisers

This ship group is close to what battlecruisers were ment to be in real life - a ship that would sacrifice armor to bring battleship sized firepower and still be able to keep up with cruisers. In my opinion, ABCs are handling this task admirably. What you need to ensure is that these ships don't deal more damage than their battleship counterparts (for instance, Naga vs. Rokh) and that they have a clearly defined weakness in their squishyness. Other than that, I'd call them fine.

Battleships

First and foremost, we need to ask ourselves what battleships are supposed to be. They're to be the kings of subcapital warfare, the ultimate in defenses, something you bring to the field in order to create a wall of tritanium against the enemy onslaught. Ultimate ehp, ultimate potential dps and the death to cruisers and battlecruisers if they come too close. It is my honest opinion that this isn't the case. Nowadays, avoidance tanking is preferred, because it completely neutralizes the enemy firepower. While the battleships tend to have most ehp, they also can't avoid taking the hits. As a result, their soaking requires far more attention than that of, say, a T3 cruiser and they tend to feel squishier.

Let's compare a battleship to a battlecruiser and a dreadnaught:

Rokh: 7500 structure, 7000 armor, 8500 shield (100/100/100%)
Drake: 3750 structure, 3250 armor, 5250 shield (50/46/62%)
Phoenix: 187500 structure, 156250 armor, 187500 shield (2500/2232/2206%)

I know that comparing a subcap to a cap isn't exactly fair, but the above numbers are ment to show just how huge a difference between a battleship and a dreadnaught is compared to the difference between a battlecruiser and a battleship. It takes a major ehp tanking setup on the tankiest battleships in game to reach the raw strength of a single stat on a dreadnaught.

Moving on, their dps isn't really ultimate. Take for instance the Rokh - it is outdamaged by a smaller, more agile, faster and cheaper Naga. When they do deal damage, their projection is fairly bad - they're virtually defenseless against small targets, requiring support to field, but they don't bring anything to the table that other ships wouldn't already offer.

And finally, a single interceptor can make it virtually immobile and helpless, a single ewar frigate can negate it and a single frigate can actually kill it.

Now, any of these points on its own wouldn't be that big a deal. But combined, they turn battleships from potentially feared to a liability in the battlefield, unless you can field tens or hundreds at once, blobbing the enemy with the alpha strike.

I still remember a few fights back in the day when I would bring a ship to a mission and the tank on the target Just. Would. Not. Break. That's what a battleship should be, a brick on the battlefield that you NEED heavy firepower to dispose of, much like an elephant shrugs off mosquito bites.

Once that's solved, you'll find issues with battleships to be fairly minor thereafter.



Not true. Battleships take longer to lock due to their signature strength, which can be the difference between a successful and a failed ewar. That's why Scorpion isn't the ultimate in ewar, because it takes a while to actually lock things down.



Frankly, if armageddon were to become a neuting ship (and imo, it shouldn't), I'd rather see it get a drone bonus. As it stands, though, the only thing Geddon lacks is a larger drone bay and a way to field missiles, other than that it's perfect as it is (minus the above mentioned issues on battleships in general).

This point of view contradicts to the whole tiercide idea. Why would I want to fly a cruiser, if a BS is simply superior in every aspect? Alright, it locks slower - but who cares?

A feature of battleships is not their DPS (some destroyers can sport more), not their active tank (which is on par with some BC and advanced cruisers), not their buffer tank even (Proteus and Damnation are kings here), and it's not even their range (as it used to be before Tier3's). Their feature is - they have it all at the same time.

And btw, battleships have unique tricks to field. Those are large smartbombs, and - guess what - heavy neuts. And now you tell me why you dont want that advantage to be emphasized in at least one Amarr BS ?

Another idea which you might wish to consider is (re)adjusting CPU/PG on ships and modules, such that ships can no longer fit every slot with a T2 module. So, players would have to compromise their fit and decide where they want to use T2 modules and where they will need to go with easier-to-fit and less powerful T1 modules. Example: If I fit a full rack of T2 ACs, then I should not be able to also fit T2 shield extenders and T2 invuls.

This would make ship fits a bit more challenging and restore a reason to build/use T1 modules. Currently, thanks to overly generous CPU/PG per ship, there is rarely any reason to be using T1 modules in any fit.

Meta modules can remain an option to T2 and T1 modules, but their drop rates need to be adjusted so they no longer glut the market - ie. restore their higher price vs. functionality status. Right now, high and low meta modules are often as cheap or cheaper than the T1 equivalents.

NVM

helping with balance?:O
that would require no dev favourism toward minmatar at first

i love how matar only lacks superiority at capital lvl, and now the naglfar gets the boost , no dont fix the capital missiles ,as that would make the phoenix usable, instead just fix the bonuses , see 2 hits with 1 shot , devs are so good at what they are doing

so when you balance the battleships instead of fixing large missiles , just give some role bonuses for the typhoon who wants to use the raven anyway

oh oh and also increase sensor strenghts ,so minmatar ships dont have to face their only remaining disadvantage ever again the ecm

I'm on board with drastically buffing a mix of EHP, damage, and range (depending on race) -- on the condition that tracking is nerfed, and hard.

Like somebody mentioned earlier, there is a large gap between sub-caps and caps. Battleships ought to fill that void.

frigate to cruiser: big jump in damage and ehp
cruiser to battlecruiser: big jump in damage and ehp
battlecruiser to battleship: lol

My observations on T1 battleships.



Battleships over the last 6-7 years have lost a lot of their position in the battlefield. They are too slow or not tough enough to cut it.

Battleships need to be strong enough to justify using them in detriment of their lack of mobility.

Also there must be some work on defining better the roles of the battleships. Simple example, Given the proposition of making the megathron faster, what would be the niche role of the tempest? The tempest (not the fleet issue) is inferior to the maelstrom in almost every fleet role. It used to be superior on solo work, but as you know that role basically does not exist. Not saying the tempest need to be buffed. I am saying that all battleships must have a reason and a role that makes them good choices on some specific scenario.

General pass on the ships.


Geddon: generally Ok, but could very well get a bit more of fittinng so it can more easily fil lthe role of massive dps boat with as much punch as possible but qith low mobility.
Apoc: I think it has a very clear role.
Abaddon: Also has a temptive role, but not many scenarios to apply it.

Scorpion: No battleship has more clear role thatn that. OK
Raven: Need some sort of help, cruise boat are not what they used to be. Could very well loose a high to gain a mid.
Rock: Clear defined role and very usable. Maybe some tweeks on fittings.

Dominix: Think deserves more fittings and less mobility so it can focus on being the less mobile platform for gallente. Would suggest a LOT making it loose 1 high for 1 low slot. Would make it a counterpart for the geddon.

Megathron. A bit more acceleration and less EHP is what I heard is CCP idea for this boat. I only get worried that It woudl step over the tempest role as the mobile gun platform.

Hyperion: Needs a HUGE rework. The slot layout make the repair bonus HORRIBLE. Find another bonus or find a way to give it 7 low slots. Make it 6 highs 7 lows and 10% damage bonus if needed.

Typhoon: For god's sake, do not give it a target painter bonus!!!

Tempest: define a role for it please. Mobile arti boat? then it needs to be a bit more agile and/ or fit the 1400mm as easily as the maelstrom, otherwise no reason for choosing it. AC mobile boat will not be a feasible role as well unless you increase its agility/speed. Sincirely? I would give it 10% damage per level and 3% agility per level .


Maelstrom: very powerful and well stablished on more than one role. Doe snot need any help at all.

That type of statement as of yours show extreme bias and should probably mean that most of your opinions to be not even listened.

There is no minmatar favoritism, there is a current metagame where minmatar is strong. 5-6 years ago minmatar were considered the worse PVP race.

At same time, these advantages you cite on shield tanking should be less important on battleship scale. Unfortunately battleships have their role in the battlefield so blurred that even that cannot be assured firmly.