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7 kilometers of ship...
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Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#21 - 2013-03-24 08:22:15 UTC
So much bad physics in this thread~

The veldspar / tritanium density calculations are just plain full re... ahem. And then using that to calculate titan mass with the assumption that the titan is a solid block of tritanium.

Nyan
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#22 - 2013-03-24 08:36:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Katran Luftschreck
Luckily it is even easier with the actual Titan information, and a million times more screwy too!


Leviathan
2,430,000,000 kg (5,357,232,971 lbs)
132,500,000 m/3

18.33962264150943kg per m3

So whatever this ship is made out of, apparently it's only 0.002339% the mass of iron and only 0.000458% that of tritanium. WTF?! Shocked

Still, it's volume (if it was a sphere) now comes out to 132,500km of matter. A bit odd for a ship "only" 18km in length...

Then we use the ship art to figure out it's real measurements...

18,056m long = 1750 pixels = 10.31771 m/p
340 pixels = 3,508m high
132,500,000 / 10.31771 / 3508.023 = 3660.749 wide
3508 + 3660 / 2 = 3584m = 11758.530183727 feet average

And falling from 400km drop (Same altitude as the International Space Station)

400km = 1312335.9580052 feet


Terminal Velocity = 1339.255 feet/s or 408.204924 m/s

Sooooo.... we've got the size, the mass, the angle and the speed... let's see what happens now...



Your Inputs:
Distance from Impact: 10.00 km ( = 6.21 miles )
Projectile diameter: 133000.00 km ( = 82300.00 miles )
Projectile Density: 18 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 408.00 meters per second ( = 1340.00 feet per second )
Impact Angle: 45 degrees
Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
Target Type: Sedimentary Rock

Energy:
Energy before atmospheric entry: 1.83 x 1030 Joules = 4.36 x 1014 MegaTons TNT

(That's 77.56 x Czar Bomba)

Major Global Changes:
Depending on the direction and location the collision, the impact may make a very small change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< half a degree).
Depending on the direction and location of impact, the collision may cause a change in the length of the day of up to 137 hours.


Crater Dimensions:

Transient Crater Diameter: 1840 km ( = 1140 miles )
Transient Crater Depth: 652 km ( = 405 miles )

Final Crater Diameter: 4930 km ( = 3060 miles )
Final Crater Depth: 3.83 km ( = 2.38 miles )



So either Caldari Prime is totally foooooked, I'm reading this wrong or CCP is even worse at math than I am.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#23 - 2013-03-24 10:39:44 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Luckily it is even easier with the actual Titan information, and a million times more screwy too!


Leviathan
2,430,000,000 kg (5,357,232,971 lbs)
132,500,000 m/3

18.33962264150943kg per m3

So whatever this ship is made out of, apparently it's only 0.002339% the mass of iron and only 0.000458% that of tritanium. WTF?! Shocked

Still, it's volume (if it was a sphere) now comes out to 132,500km of matter. A bit odd for a ship "only" 18km in length...

Then we use the ship art to figure out it's real measurements...

18,056m long = 1750 pixels = 10.31771 m/p
340 pixels = 3,508m high
132,500,000 / 10.31771 / 3508.023 = 3660.749 wide
3508 + 3660 / 2 = 3584m = 11758.530183727 feet average

And falling from 400km drop (Same altitude as the International Space Station)

400km = 1312335.9580052 feet


Terminal Velocity = 1339.255 feet/s or 408.204924 m/s

Sooooo.... we've got the size, the mass, the angle and the speed... let's see what happens now...



Your Inputs:
Distance from Impact: 10.00 km ( = 6.21 miles )
Projectile diameter: 133000.00 km ( = 82300.00 miles )
Projectile Density: 18 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 408.00 meters per second ( = 1340.00 feet per second )
Impact Angle: 45 degrees
Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
Target Type: Sedimentary Rock

Energy:
Energy before atmospheric entry: 1.83 x 1030 Joules = 4.36 x 1014 MegaTons TNT

(That's 77.56 x Czar Bomba)

Major Global Changes:
Depending on the direction and location the collision, the impact may make a very small change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< half a degree).
Depending on the direction and location of impact, the collision may cause a change in the length of the day of up to 137 hours.


Crater Dimensions:

Transient Crater Diameter: 1840 km ( = 1140 miles )
Transient Crater Depth: 652 km ( = 405 miles )

Final Crater Diameter: 4930 km ( = 3060 miles )
Final Crater Depth: 3.83 km ( = 2.38 miles )



So either Caldari Prime is totally foooooked, I'm reading this wrong or CCP is even worse at math than I am.


Dude, your inputs are beyond awful... your projectile diameter is larger than Earth! Shocked
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#24 - 2013-03-24 11:21:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
OK, let's forget about CCP bullsh*t and look at some actual nerdness.

Density estimate: will say like an old skyscrapper. Say, the Empire State building. 365,000,000 kg vs 1,047,000 m3 = 364 kg/m3 (rounded up)

Volume estimate: assume a parallelepiped whose dimensions are 18000 x 3500 x 3600 meters = 226,800,000,000 cubic meters. It actually is smaller because of complex geometry but we're just guessing.

226,800,000,000 cubic meters would be the volume of a sphere 3.783 meters in radius = 7566 meters of diameter.

Impact velocity: Will assume 200 km as the altitude. In free fall, the wreck would reach a top speed of 1,435 m/s

We input that to our calculator and the results are:

Quote:
Your Inputs:

Distance from Impact: 100.00 km ( = 62.10 miles )
Projectile diameter: 7.57 km ( = 4.70 miles )
Projectile Density: 364 kg/m3
Impact Velocity: 1.44 km per second ( = 0.89 miles per second )
Impact Angle: 90 degrees
Target Density: 2500 kg/m3
Target Type: Sedimentary Rock
Energy:

Energy before atmospheric entry: 8.50 x 1019 Joules = 2.03 x 104 MegaTons TNT
The average interval between impacts of this size somewhere on Earth during the last 4 billion years is 1.7 x 106years
Major Global Changes:

The Earth is not strongly disturbed by the impact and loses negligible mass.
The impact does not make a noticeable change in the tilt of Earth's axis (< 5 hundreths of a degree).
The impact does not shift the Earth's orbit noticeably.

Crater Dimensions:

Transient Crater Diameter: 9.59 km ( = 5.95 miles )
Transient Crater Depth: 3.39 km ( = 2.1 miles )

Final Crater Diameter: 12.9 km ( = 8.03 miles )
Final Crater Depth: 639 meters ( = 2100 feet )
The crater formed is a complex crater.
At this impact velocity ( < 12 km/s), little shock melting of the target occurs.

Thermal Radiation:

At this impact velocity ( < 15 km/s), little vaporization occurs; no fireball is created, therefore, there is no thermal radiation damage.

Seismic Effects:

The major seismic shaking will arrive approximately 20 seconds after impact.
Richter Scale Magnitude: 7.5
Mercalli Scale Intensity at a distance of 100 km:

VI. Felt by all, many frightened. Some heavy furniture moved; a few instances of fallen plaster. Damage slight.

VII. Damage negligible in buildings of good design and construction; slight to moderate in well-built ordinary structures; considerable damage in poorly built or badly designed structures; some chimneys broken.

Ejecta:

The ejecta will arrive approximately 2.4 minutes after the impact.
At your position there is a fine dusting of ejecta with occasional larger fragments
Average Ejecta Thickness: 7.54 cm ( = 2.97 inches )
Mean Fragment Diameter: 8.23 cm ( = 3.24 inches )

Air Blast:

The air blast will arrive approximately 5.05 minutes after impact.
Peak Overpressure: 47400 Pa = 0.474 bars = 6.73 psi
Max wind velocity: 94.2 m/s = 211 mph
Sound Intensity: 94 dB (May cause ear pain)
Damage Description:

Multistory wall-bearing buildings will collapse.

Wood frame buildings will almost completely collapse.

Glass windows will shatter.

Up to 90 percent of trees blown down; remainder stripped of branches and leaves.


Feel free to estimate actual orbital velocity (38 km/s as per Caldari prime escape velcity) and impact angle...
Charlepetit LaJoie
Trust Me Ltd
#25 - 2013-03-24 16:29:00 UTC
The crash would have been worse, but the Titan had curb feelers.
Josef Djugashvilis
#26 - 2013-03-24 16:39:24 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
and only ******* 2 million kilometers of area destroyed!? what the **** was that titan made of? empty aluminium?

an object that size regardless of the speed and with the expected density should have anhilated half that planet population just on impact i mean it was orbiting at well over 1000 kms, that planet being similar to earth would make that piece accelerate to ludicrously high speeds and with that density... JUST 2 million kilometers!? and cosmetic damage to some buildings?


dont you read the news, this year a ******* 10 meter meteor passed by, it just passed over russia and blew the windows of all the city, given mass increases damage on a linear scale, dont you think the damage should be way higher?


Is this an example of role playing?

If so, then role playing is even more weird than I had thought.

This is not a signature.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#27 - 2013-03-24 16:44:49 UTC
I knew a guy who used to be able to do calculations like this in his head... sadly he's dead now... and right when I really need to call him Sad

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#28 - 2013-03-24 17:18:51 UTC
eve has physics?

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#29 - 2013-03-24 17:45:50 UTC
DarthNefarius wrote:
Ager Agemo wrote:
[quote=Sentamon]

given 1 thousand kilometers to accelerate... without resistance, the impact speed will be several times the speed of sound actually...


You forgot to add in the anti-gravitic/inertia distortion fied generators that slowed it down

Witnesses say a man in blue tights with an "S" on his chest slowed it down. True story.
Nikko Jiangtibayan
Ghosts That Linger
#30 - 2013-03-24 18:01:39 UTC
Worth noting that the Titan didn't explode when it hit.

Hello...mate. 

Mizhir: "Brakes are for cowards and they makes the ship heavier."
Pantiy
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2013-03-24 18:18:19 UTC
Nerds gonna nerd
Rebecha Pucontis
Doomheim
#32 - 2013-03-24 18:27:52 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
and only ******* 2 million kilometers of area destroyed!? what the **** was that titan made of? empty aluminium?

an object that size regardless of the speed and with the expected density should have anhilated half that planet population just on impact i mean it was orbiting at well over 1000 kms, that planet being similar to earth would make that piece accelerate to ludicrously high speeds and with that density... JUST 2 million kilometers!? and cosmetic damage to some buildings?


dont you read the news, this year a ******* 10 meter meteor passed by, it just passed over russia and blew the windows of all the city, given mass increases damage on a linear scale, dont you think the damage should be way higher?


If you want to be techinical, than in fact the wrecked hull of a Titan would likely disintegrate very easily on entry into a planets atmosphere, compared to a highly dense meteor. Have you ever seen the weight of a small shard from a meteor, those thing weigh a tonne. The most likely scenario in my imagination would be the Titan wreck would disintergrate on entry with only a few shards actually making it to the ground.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#33 - 2013-03-24 18:40:11 UTC
The pikes landing incident had an entire dreadnought disheartening before any major pieces fell to the ground.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#34 - 2013-03-24 19:46:40 UTC
You missed the 9,000km (Refer to the 'length of flaming debries' which can only have been in atmosphere) of atmospheric breaking that occured. The titan did not crash directly downwards into the planet but on a skippy orbit meaning it had a lot of time to shed velocity.
You are also attempting to do a spherical volume/density calculation (& all failing badly) when you do not have a sphere, you have the original mass of the object already, and you have approximatly 1/3rd of the original object falling into the planet.
This object also shed a significant portion of itself into smaller pieces along the way. So we are likely down to nearly 1/4 of the Titans original mass, & a much lower impact speed than any of your calculations are assuming. It also is believed to have impacted into a mountain range, allowing for mountain skipping potentially, breaking several ridges off before impacting spreading out the energy release of the impact.
To top it off, since it is a Warp ship, Orbital/Escape velocities really don't apply, because it breaks conventional physics.

& this is without considering any remaining control systems & trapped crew utilising those systems to try and buy themselves & their friends additional time to make it to any remaining escape pods/etc.
Nicky Scars
Doomheim
#35 - 2013-03-24 20:00:41 UTC
Thur Barbek wrote:


Not to mention, eve is submarine physics... so the ship would be slowing down as it crashed.


You mean that titan actually slowly sank to a surface of the planet? Shocked
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#36 - 2013-03-24 20:58:12 UTC
Has anyone tried to do it backwards?

IE estimate the size speed or mass required to cause the current amount of damage?

Also lets just assume glass in eve is just a strong as some battle armor. After all its probably the same stuff they use to deflect micro-meteorites in space windows. This would significanly increase the amount of energy required to shatter it.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Domina Trix
McKNOBBLER DRINKING CLAN
#37 - 2013-03-24 21:07:22 UTC
Quote:
If you want to be techinical, than in fact the wrecked hull of a Titan would likely disintegrate very easily on entry into a planets atmosphere, compared to a highly dense meteor. Have you ever seen the weight of a small shard from a meteor, those thing weigh a tonne. The most likely scenario in my imagination would be the Titan wreck would disintergrate on entry with only a few shards actually making it to the ground.


yet the titan seen in the dust video clearly did not completely disintegrate in fact a very large portion of it survived the impact with enough integrity to remain at an angle sticking out of the ground after that impact.

Whichever way anyone spins the maths the amount of damage done to the planet is far less than it should be given what was supposed to have happened.

Two of the defining characteristics of a carebear are wanting other players to play the way the carebear wants and whining on the forums for the game to change when they don't. Yet I see more threads on these forums from gankers than I do miners whining about wanting the game changed to suit them.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#38 - 2013-03-24 21:13:25 UTC
Me watches the news feed for an explanation by an in role play expert.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2013-03-24 21:15:29 UTC
What would the terminal velocity of a titan be crashing into Caldari Prime?

How much of the ship broke apart? How much of the ship is empty space? (corridors, rooms, storage, etc)

Would there be any kind of automatic fail safe measures that would fire upon entry in an atmosphere? (somehow I doubt it since a titan is a deep space ship.. but.. this is a 'special' titan anyway).

Would the crew who survived the space battle try anything to slow the ship down? Or would they try to speed it up? Would escape pods jettisoning from the wreck cause any kind of tangible effect on the rate of descent?

Without knowing all of the variables then all of these calculations are going to be all over the place - which they have been. :)
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-03-24 21:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
Domina Trix wrote:
Quote:
If you want to be techinical, than in fact the wrecked hull of a Titan would likely disintegrate very easily on entry into a planets atmosphere, compared to a highly dense meteor. Have you ever seen the weight of a small shard from a meteor, those thing weigh a tonne. The most likely scenario in my imagination would be the Titan wreck would disintergrate on entry with only a few shards actually making it to the ground.


yet the titan seen in the dust video clearly did not completely disintegrate in fact a very large portion of it survived the impact with enough integrity to remain at an angle sticking out of the ground after that impact.

Whichever way anyone spins the maths the amount of damage done to the planet is far less than it should be given what was supposed to have happened.


I am going back to the minimum control the ship had. True, it's shields were down, it was breaking up, and it's main drive system was gone.

However, if you wish to steer and maneuver something large and have control, auxiliary thrusters far from the center of gravity are required, plus backup contiginencies. Most battles happen over planets. It is not unfathomable the the Titans have redundant and isolated systems for attitude and control.

Simply put, the ship was too badly damaged to maintain orbit. It's main power was down. Power conduits to run the manuevering engines of a titan would be massive and an extreme liability. It is a most probable fact that each of these subsystems were independently powered.

Leviathan Components

Quite a number propulsion engines and power generators used in the construction of it. We also know that the main source of movement for a titan is it's jump engine system which has a direct fuel infusion system for it's operation.

Now as for the metals. Simply put, not all material into the process would be used in the end. There is waste scrap, the tooling needed for assembly etc. There are spaceyards full of this debris, not to mention complex alloys etc. that are formed in the production. I would need to actually spend the time to calculate out the overall densities and such and also read the details of the volume/mass densities to really comment. But that is time not interested in spending.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
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