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Oblivion.
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Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#41 - 2013-03-24 00:42:45 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:


When my daughter was in primary school I always made sure that she provided an explanation for her work. I'd tell her that if I couldn't see the long hand on how she got her answer then I couldn't take it in good faith that the work was indeed correct. We're talking about something that involves likely a hundred or more different factors, not a child's take home assignment. You would have to know the amount of force it would take to penetrate the surface crust of the planet, and that involves knowing the density of the crust as well.

I cannot look in my hanger and figure these things out. Then again, as they say, the burden of proof is yours to provide in this case.


Hmmm. I suspect he isn't going to answer you either, Mr. Louvaki.

In any event, a weapon system achieves its effects by transferring energy from itself to its environment. Based upon the damage they inflict on known targets, we in turn know that the energy contained within each of the doomsday devices is balanced to a shockingly precise degree (almost as if by a higher power).

When a death beam comes in contact with a planet's atmosphere, it begins to transfer energy to the gases of that atmosphere. The gases heat and expand rapidly. This forms a vacuum. The death beam stops transferring energy from itself to the atmosphere, because it is no longer in contact with said.

Then the death beam slams into the planet itself, and begins transferring energy to the rock. Like the atmosphere, the rock will also try to run away. Unlike the atmosphere, rock has nowhere to run. The energy of the death beam builds up in the rock, creating pressure and eventually releasing in cataclysmic ejection of pyroclastic material. That material spreads far and wide, igniting everything it comes in contact with.

The Leviathian's doomsday weapon packages the same quantity of energy as the death beam in a different container. But when it is detonated, the energy transfers to its surrounding environment all the same.

Same energy, same outcome. If the Admiral's plan was to "destroy" Caldari Prime, all she had to do was fire the missiles. She did not have to make any magical maneuvers or otherwise plunge her vessel into the "magma" beneath the "crust" of the planet, itself.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-03-24 01:05:39 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
When did i mention anything about 'bumping' the titan?

And in this case, if the titan had hit the same location as it's oblivion weapon, there would have been a rather large hole ripped through the planetary crust, and a devastating explosion within the magma layer beneath, causing massive tectonic instability, potentially enough to cause a chain reaction that would have torn the planet asunder.

an impact crater that did not pierce the crust of the planet, no matter it's length, would cause a fair amount less damage than that.

especially when you consider that it would not only have been the reactor that would have exploded under the surface of the planet but any remaining ordnance within the titan.

A fighter can do it because it is small. A titan cannot because it is big.
I had more faith in your reasoning ability Noh. I guess I was wrong.

so, in short, yes, it would pile the damage in one place, and that would be enough damage to crack the crust and potentially destroy the planet.

Geology. It's all very simple when you've been studying it.



Hah!



While the impact from a large ship would make a lovely crater let's not kid ourselves; it's not going to get anywhere near through the several thousand kilometers of solid rock most planetary bodies have between the surface and the core. Most habitable planets have what, an average of 3,000 kilometers of solid rock between the surface and the squishy bits?

So here's a fun experiment for you budding geologists; Turn on a microwarp, fly at 1km / s in any direction. Now go have a nice meal and come back in an hour. That's how thick the surface is on most planets.

Asteroids of incredible size have been smashing into planets for time immemorial.

Weather the doomsday device would have started a very-bad-day for most of the planet's inhabitants via unconsnetual explosion is another story, however.

Le Planet, she's going to be just fine. You could ram 100 Titans into the thing and it's not going to 'crack.' you silly little man.


iyammarrok wrote:

Geology. It's all very simple when you've been studying it.


hahahhahahahahahahahahahhahahaahaha *takes a deep breath*

hahahahahahhahahahahahaha






Sabik now, Sabik forever
Cmdr Baxter
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#43 - 2013-03-24 01:27:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Cmdr Baxter
The much-vaunted "neutrality" and "professionalism" of The Synenose Accord on full display for not only the entire capsuleer community, but baseliners. To say I'm profoundly disappointed is an understatement. Needling this topic and provoking controversy - and waging a war of words - at such a diplomatically-sensitive time is not, and has never been, our corporation's way.

Commander S. "Old Man" Baxter, CN (ret.)

Chief Archivist, The Synenose Accord
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-03-24 01:29:32 UTC
Cmdr Baxter wrote:
The much-vaunted "neutrality" and "professionalism" of The Synenose Accord on full display for not only the entire capsuleer community, but baseliners. To say I'm profoundly disappointed is an understatement. Needling this topic and provoking controversy - and waging a war of words - at such a diplomatically-sensitive time is not, and has never been, our corporation's way.



No, I think your man is doing splendid.


Forum Debates. It's all very simple when you've been studying it.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#45 - 2013-03-24 01:35:21 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:

Forum Debates. It's all very simple when you've been studying it.


Oh, dear. I'm crying. Please take over soon, darling. Kisses!
Vikarion
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-03-24 01:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikarion
I think that the OP is confusing a "Leviathan" with something I remember from some pulp fiction story, uh, "cyclonic torpedo" or something like that. I don't know how he managed it.

Ah, I remember. It was a game of some kind. Here we go:

Cyclonic Torpedo

How he confused that with a Caldari Leviathan, I have no clue.

Ironically, although the tech seems a bit fantastic and the setting is nutty, I have to admit that the characters in that game tend to be a bit more intelligent and realistic than the ones we have to deal with here.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#47 - 2013-03-24 02:09:41 UTC
A little further study (I'm no geologist) indicates there's that tiny little layer of magma below the crust I seem to have missed.

But what's a little lava between friends?!

Maybe it would puncture a tiny hole in the crust, but then we'd just have a big volcano doing it's angry impression of iyammarrok and frothing at the mouth.

And that won't harm anyone.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#48 - 2013-03-24 02:56:59 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
As we already know that the Shiigeru had been moved into position ahead of time, and that Oblivion requires neither direct line of sight nor more than ten seconds to fire


For reference, position 1 will be referred to as the original location of the Shiigeru, position 2 will refer to the position it assumed when it prepared to fire.

Before the FDU forces approached on the field, the Shiigeru had been put into firing alert when communication was lost, at this point it moved into position 2. The alert was cancelled and the weapons stood down at the last minute however when communication was re-established, the Shiigeru then moved back into position 1.

It had done this same sequence after the first alert to fire before the State forces took the ground war, withdrawing back to position 2.

When the Federal Navy fleet arrived, it was in position 1. It did not make it to position 2 to fire during the battle, and when it attempted as a last ditch effort before destruction could not engage propulsion with the reactor offline.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#49 - 2013-03-24 03:25:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
As we already know that the Shiigeru had been moved into position ahead of time, and that Oblivion requires neither direct line of sight nor more than ten seconds to fire


For reference, position 1 will be referred to as the original location of the Shiigeru, position 2 will refer to the position it assumed when it prepared to fire.

Before the FDU forces approached on the field, the Shiigeru had been put into firing alert when communication was lost, at this point it moved into position 2. The alert was cancelled and the weapons stood down at the last minute however when communication was re-established, the Shiigeru then moved back into position 1.

It had done this same sequence after the first alert to fire before the State forces took the ground war, withdrawing back to position 2.

When the Federal Navy fleet arrived, it was in position 1. It did not make it to position 2 to fire during the battle, and when it attempted as a last ditch effort before destruction could not engage propulsion with the reactor offline.


According to whom?

The Shiigeru was in standby at a low-orbit position. At no point did it return to high orbit, to my understanding. I do not know where you are getting that information. It was in proper firing position already. When it found itself unable to fire from that position, because of malfunction or whatever reason, it began to move even closer. It never moved out of range, as far as I know.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-03-24 03:28:30 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
The last time a Doomsday weapon was used against a planet, it utterly wrecked the biosphere. This represents a 100% success rate in terms of Doomsday weapons ending a planet's capacity support complex biological life.


I'm not a titan pilot, but I was serving in the Navy back then. And, if I'm not mistaken, titan weapons worked quite different then than they do now. Not to mention the differences in weaponry already mentioned in this thread.

iyamarrok wrote:
Correct Pieter, She did not.

However, the point remains that She intended to and was only awaiting final authorization.
As I have said multiple times, It is a good thing that someone who outranked her within the Caldari Navy managed to suppress the fire order multiple times.


She did not. She said she would, but she didn't. When someone says they'll do something and they don't, it's called lying or bluffing. It happens.

And there is an important factor in this. If I was the commander of a titan-class vessel, I wouldn't be saying on public comms where I'm aligning or what I intend to do. I don't do it on smaller ships, don't see a reason for it in larger ones. The only reason to broadcast that is to send a message... and that does not necessarily mean that the facts are going to follow.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#51 - 2013-03-24 03:44:21 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:
As we already know that the Shiigeru had been moved into position ahead of time, and that Oblivion requires neither direct line of sight nor more than ten seconds to fire


For reference, position 1 will be referred to as the original location of the Shiigeru, position 2 will refer to the position it assumed when it prepared to fire.

Before the FDU forces approached on the field, the Shiigeru had been put into firing alert when communication was lost, at this point it moved into position 2. The alert was cancelled and the weapons stood down at the last minute however when communication was re-established, the Shiigeru then moved back into position 1.

It had done this same sequence after the first alert to fire before the State forces took the ground war, withdrawing back to position 2.

When the Federal Navy fleet arrived, it was in position 1. It did not make it to position 2 to fire during the battle, and when it attempted as a last ditch effort before destruction could not engage propulsion with the reactor offline.


According to whom?

The Shiigeru was in standby at a low-orbit position. At no point did it return to high orbit, to my understanding. I do not know where you are getting that information. It was in proper firing position already. When it found itself unable to fire from that position, because of malfunction or whatever reason, it began to move even closer. It never moved out of range, as far as I know.


You're confusing the two different positions I refered to with high and low orbit.

I watched the Shiigeru closely from a vantage point some 60km slightly above but between the Leviathan and the planet. Each time before the Federal Navy fleet engaged, it along with the Wyvern support moved closer towards the planet in a head on formation when it intended to fire, closing the gap down to some 40 km.

Each time it stood down it returned to the previous 60km distanced spot.

When the Federal Navy engaged, the Leviathan did not return to its firing formation position.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#52 - 2013-03-24 05:28:52 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
What effect does a kinetic missile have upon detonation?


Going to nitpick here... a kinetic-kill missile does not detonate or explode.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2013-03-24 07:20:10 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:

I watched the Shiigeru closely from a vantage point some 60km slightly above but between the Leviathan and the planet. Each time before the Federal Navy fleet engaged, it along with the Wyvern support moved closer towards the planet in a head on formation when it intended to fire, closing the gap down to some 40 km.


For clarification, are those distances measured between your vessel and the Shiigeru, or between the Shiigeru and Caldari Prime? If the former, do you recall your own distance from the planet?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#54 - 2013-03-24 12:02:01 UTC
The Shiigeru stated they were holding orbit at an 'optimum' 325km above the planet during their weapons test cycles shortly before the DED Battleship arrived on the grid and challenged them over the Yulai Convention breach.
The beacon most of the ships used to arrive in the area was at an Altitude of about 500km. And the titan was typically somewhere closeish to this beacon.

As for the 'Oblivion' technical details, I would ask how many of you have ever fired one at a planet. Or infact fired any missile at a planet. I know I haven't. And I would suspect that the ammunition used for planetary bombardment may infact be somewhat different & perhaps more complex to load than standard missiles. This is true in the smaller destroyer classes used for pinpoint tactical bombardments, that they have to reload the correct ammunition into the guns for orbital support, so quite likely is true for Capital weapons as well, as a space designed missile would likely destroy itself on hitting atmosphere. So a specially shielded version that may require specific aligment to the planet due to reduced control surfaces may be what is at question here. Not any kind of excuse. Can I confirm that, no. But it is a likely answer.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#55 - 2013-03-24 13:26:41 UTC
It should be noted that the views represented here are my own.

They in no way reflect the views of the Synenose Accord.

- Tertianus Rethelior

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#56 - 2013-03-24 13:30:58 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
iyammarrok wrote:
What effect does a kinetic missile have upon detonation?


Going to nitpick here... a kinetic-kill missile does not detonate or explode.


they do when they strike my ship. Their detonation merely releases a kinetic shockwave instead of a shrapnel laden explosion. it seems such a slight difference to look at, but the effects are vastly different.

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#57 - 2013-03-24 13:32:27 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:

I watched the Shiigeru closely from a vantage point some 60km slightly above but between the Leviathan and the planet. Each time before the Federal Navy fleet engaged, it along with the Wyvern support moved closer towards the planet in a head on formation when it intended to fire, closing the gap down to some 40 km.


For clarification, are those distances measured between your vessel and the Shiigeru, or between the Shiigeru and Caldari Prime? If the former, do you recall your own distance from the planet?


Mine and the Shiigeru, and no I don't have my original position from the planet, but I had placed myself between it and the Leviathan.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
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