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Should Ganking be profitable?

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Whitehound
#601 - 2013-03-23 19:12:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#602 - 2013-03-23 19:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

I can answer at least in part,

A: because the ganker has to spend time and effort to carry out the gank, therefore they should have the possibility of reaping the fruits of their labour.
B: because it annoys the hell out of a certain minority of the server population.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#603 - 2013-03-23 19:24:17 UTC
Well it is good to see we are at this point, and when I mean at this point I reference the replies they offered when what has always worked for them in past with this type of troll posting where people give in or just give up. I did neither and if you scan over the last few pages you can see the results.

I have stated and reiterated my points and refuse to keep doing so. Not because I give up but because like my children when the only reply you can give is why? Or why not then you know you have reached that person limit of understanding or willingness to understand.

At the very least keeping them posting may have saved a few imbalanced ganks. I will be happy to keep posting to your impertinent questions but I will not restate what has already been said over and over.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#604 - 2013-03-23 19:26:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Well it is good to see we are at this point, and when I mean at this point I reference the replies they offered when what has always worked for them in past with this type of troll posting where people give in or just give up. I did neither and if you scan over the last few pages you can see the results.

I have stated and reiterated my points and refuse to keep doing so. Not because I give up but because like my children when the only reply you can give is why? Or why not then you know you have reached that person limit of understanding or willingness to understand.

At the very least keeping them posting may have saved a few imbalanced ganks. I will be happy to keep posting to your impertinent questions but I will not restate what has already been said over and over.

It would help if you actually answered the question you've been asked multiple times instead of avoiding it. You have failed to do so on numerous occasions, you have also failed to make any valid points beyond "because I don't like it", although you have reiterated that you don't like it repeatedly, I'll give you that much.

Here's another chance to actually give a straight answer beyond "I don't like gankers making a profit from their activities". It's a very pertinent question and is actually the whole crux of the thread. We've given multiple reasons as to why ganking should be profitable, you have given none as to why it should not. So here goes nothing

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#605 - 2013-03-23 19:28:05 UTC
And you repeatedly ignore the points we've been reiterating such as:

Ganking for salvage and ganking for loot are two separate concepts entirely

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#606 - 2013-03-23 19:28:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
I have stated and reiterated my points and refuse to keep doing so.
Good for you. The problem is that they don't answer the questions people are asking you, and without those answers, your points fall pretty flat since there's nothing to support them.

Quote:
At the very least keeping them posting may have saved a few imbalanced ganks.
Unlikely, since most of us aren't gankers. That said, what imbalance?

Quote:
I will not restate what has already been said over and over.
It would be nice if you didn't, and instead actually started to answer the questions rather than regurgitate the tired old “answer that already” response without being able to show that you did or how anything you've said is in any way an answer to what people are wondering.

For extra brownie points, trying doing it without being abusive, since that'll only end up losing you more than your name…
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#607 - 2013-03-23 19:29:25 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.



Fair enough! The ingame mechanics allow for me to take away your valuables at the cost of maybe getting me blown up, a failed attempt, and take a hit to my security status. Which in turn I'll be needed to redeem myself by killing enemies of the state to regain my reputation (see; killing rats).

I also got the idea from CCP themselves when they put an advert up on a website (IMDB.com I think, or some gaming sites from years past) that said I could do anything I wanted! I could fly spaceships to build an empire, I can join fleets to kill npcs, I can get into mining and other industrial endeavors. I could even be a pirate! I could blow people up! I also can salvage wrecks that do not belong to me, learned through trial and error. I could also loot other peoples' wrecks, again learned through trial and error.

I also came up with some ideas back in rookie help, and also paid attention by reading forums posts, local, other channels, google, etc.

Basically, I think it should be allowed because it has been allowed and proven to be allowed. And also encouraged.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#608 - 2013-03-23 19:31:23 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Well it is good to see we are at this point, and when I mean at this point I reference the replies they offered when what has always worked for them in past with this type of troll posting where people give in or just give up. I did neither and if you scan over the last few pages you can see the results.

I have stated and reiterated my points and refuse to keep doing so. Not because I give up but because like my children when the only reply you can give is why? Or why not then you know you have reached that person limit of understanding or willingness to understand.

At the very least keeping them posting may have saved a few imbalanced ganks. I will be happy to keep posting to your impertinent questions but I will not restate what has already been said over and over.



You're going to have to go back a few pages to even remotely get caught up with the questrons being asked of you. You even said you needed new questions because you didn't want to repeat your nonexistent answers.

You have yet to even remotely address those.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#609 - 2013-03-23 19:32:22 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.



Fair enough! The ingame mechanics allow for me to take away your valuables at the cost of maybe getting me blown up, a failed attempt, and take a hit to my security status. Which in turn I'll be needed to redeem myself by killing enemies of the state to regain my reputation (see; killing rats).

I also got the idea from CCP themselves when they put an advert up on a website (IMDB.com I think, or some gaming sites from years past) that said I could do anything I wanted! I could fly spaceships to build an empire, I can join fleets to kill npcs, I can get into mining and other industrial endeavors. I could even be a pirate! I could blow people up! I also can salvage wrecks that do not belong to me, learned through trial and error. I could also loot other peoples' wrecks, again learned through trial and error.

I also came up with some ideas back in rookie help, and also paid attention by reading forums posts, local, other channels, google, etc.

Basically, I think it should be allowed because it has been allowed and proven to be allowed. And also encouraged.


You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed. When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#610 - 2013-03-23 19:33:20 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed.
What balance issue?

Quote:
When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope
…and yet, you can.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#611 - 2013-03-23 19:33:49 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Well it is good to see we are at this point, and when I mean at this point I reference the replies they offered when what has always worked for them in past with this type of troll posting where people give in or just give up. I did neither and if you scan over the last few pages you can see the results.

I have stated and reiterated my points and refuse to keep doing so. Not because I give up but because like my children when the only reply you can give is why? Or why not then you know you have reached that person limit of understanding or willingness to understand.

At the very least keeping them posting may have saved a few imbalanced ganks. I will be happy to keep posting to your impertinent questions but I will not restate what has already been said over and over.



You're going to have to go back a few pages to even remotely get caught up with the questrons being asked of you. You even said you needed new questions because you didn't want to repeat your nonexistent answers.

You have yet to even remotely address those.

The questions were answered if people dont like the answer thats on them not me.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#612 - 2013-03-23 19:34:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed.
What balance issue?

Quote:
When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope
…and yet, you can.

The ones already covered.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#613 - 2013-03-23 19:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed. When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope


Pirates historically have avoided taking on targets that they know are impossible to take, especially combat vessels, the targets of choice have always been merchants and infrastructure/industry, please choose another more realistic comparison.

And nope the question has not been answered it has been consistently avoided.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#614 - 2013-03-23 19:36:25 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed. When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope


Pirates historically have avoided taking on targets that they know are impossible to take, especially combat vessels, the targets of choice have always been merchants and infrastructure/industry, please choose another more realistic comparison.

because this is a game I choose game specific example.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#615 - 2013-03-23 19:38:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
The questions were answered
Prove it. It has nothing to do with people not liking the answers — it has to do with them not finding any answers in your posts.

Quote:
The ones already covered.
Nope. You've just said that there is a balance issue; you have not explained what that issue actually is. So, again: what balance issue?

Quote:
because this is a game I choose game specific example.
…so did he, which is why he rejected your nonsensical titan-vs-frigate comparison (which, btw, only takes about 4h to perform).
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#616 - 2013-03-23 19:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed. When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope


Pirates historically have avoided taking on targets that they know are impossible to take, especially combat vessels, the targets of choice have always been merchants and infrastructure/industry, please choose another more realistic comparison.

because this is a game I choose game specific example.

It's not a realistic example though, even as a gameplay example, nobody in their right mind enters into a solo fight with an opponent that is magnitudes stronger than them, they bring friends. While one frigate may not be able to take a titan, thousands can. There is strength in numbers. As the age old saying goes "united we stand, divided we fall".

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Whitehound
#617 - 2013-03-23 19:45:22 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.

I can answer at least in part,

A: because the ganker has to spend time and effort to carry out the gank, therefore he should have the possibility of reaping the fruits of his labour.
B: because it annoys the hell out of a certain minority of the server population.

I'll ignore B for obvious reasons.

A: It is not a good answer. Effort alone does not warrant a reward. Your victim has spend time and effort, too. It does not need "fruits". All it needs is consequence. This can be a reward, but it can be a punishment, too.

So we should discuss why it needs reward here and why not only punishment.

To me it seems like you want it to be an easy reward, because of the high punishment, and it seems you do this to avoid the purpose of the punishment and to ignore the punishment and to keep doing it.

Further do I see the rewards as the key element for the PvE, but not for PvP. PvP is about power, control, dominance, territory, etc.. I would go as far as saying that gankers are trying to make PvP into PvE and therefore do not deserve a reward, but a punishment.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#618 - 2013-03-23 19:47:02 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:

You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed. When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope


Pirates historically have avoided taking on targets that they know are impossible to take, especially combat vessels, the targets of choice have always been merchants and infrastructure/industry, please choose another more realistic comparison.

because this is a game I choose game specific example.

It's not a realistic example though, even as a gameplay example, nobody in their right mind enters into a solo fight with an opponent that is magnitudes stronger than them, they bring friends. While one frigate will not be able to take a titan, thousands can. There is strength in numbers. As the age old saying goes "united we stand, divided we fall".

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

because its a game it doesnt have to be realistic. Do you really want to go down the realism road?
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#619 - 2013-03-23 19:47:32 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
I don't. I think it should be allowed.

Why? You seem to have a reason when you say this. So you should be able to explain it. I will not repeat my answer to the question every time someone asks it.



Fair enough! The ingame mechanics allow for me to take away your valuables at the cost of maybe getting me blown up, a failed attempt, and take a hit to my security status. Which in turn I'll be needed to redeem myself by killing enemies of the state to regain my reputation (see; killing rats).

I also got the idea from CCP themselves when they put an advert up on a website (IMDB.com I think, or some gaming sites from years past) that said I could do anything I wanted! I could fly spaceships to build an empire, I can join fleets to kill npcs, I can get into mining and other industrial endeavors. I could even be a pirate! I could blow people up! I also can salvage wrecks that do not belong to me, learned through trial and error. I could also loot other peoples' wrecks, again learned through trial and error.

I also came up with some ideas back in rookie help, and also paid attention by reading forums posts, local, other channels, google, etc.

Basically, I think it should be allowed because it has been allowed and proven to be allowed. And also encouraged.


You could still do all those things even if the balance issue was fixed. When they said you could be a pirate did they say you could take a frigrate and kill a Titan? Nope


Are you saying you can?

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#620 - 2013-03-23 19:48:41 UTC
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
Well it is good to see we are at this point, and when I mean at this point I reference the replies they offered when what has always worked for them in past with this type of troll posting where people give in or just give up. I did neither and if you scan over the last few pages you can see the results.

I have stated and reiterated my points and refuse to keep doing so. Not because I give up but because like my children when the only reply you can give is why? Or why not then you know you have reached that person limit of understanding or willingness to understand.

At the very least keeping them posting may have saved a few imbalanced ganks. I will be happy to keep posting to your impertinent questions but I will not restate what has already been said over and over.



You're going to have to go back a few pages to even remotely get caught up with the questrons being asked of you. You even said you needed new questions because you didn't want to repeat your nonexistent answers.

You have yet to even remotely address those.

The questions were answered if people dont like the answer thats on them not me.



You never answered my questions I asked of you. The ones talking specifically about salvaging wrecks. You keep saying you are doing things you haven't done yet.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.