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Mining: Working As Intended

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Dave Stark
#21 - 2013-03-23 14:59:27 UTC
i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#22 - 2013-03-23 17:32:27 UTC
Zircon Dasher
#23 - 2013-03-23 18:22:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Dave Stark wrote:
i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.


Honest Question:

What happens when market trends change? Should CCP tinker with mineral content each time there is a trend change in order to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#24 - 2013-03-23 19:03:58 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.


Honest Question:

What happens when market trends change? Should CCP constantly tinker with mineral content all the time to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them?



They have been settled into the way they are for a good year now. This is the new paradigm.

The last time there was a radical change was when the Noctis was introduced with it's high Nocxium requirement which made Pyroxeres extremely valuable for quite awhile. But that was over 2 1/2 years ago now, so this isn't exactly an everyday thing.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Zircon Dasher
#25 - 2013-03-23 19:30:36 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
They have been settled into the way they are for a good year now. This is the new paradigm.

The last time there was a radical change was when the Noctis was introduced with it's high Nocxium requirement which made Pyroxeres extremely valuable for quite awhile. But that was over 2 1/2 years ago now, so this isn't exactly an everyday thing.


My post was worded too strongly. I went and edited it.

Having seen numerous price changes since 2006, forgive me if 1 year of stability is kinda 'meh'. That said, my question does not need for it to be 'everyday'.

Every time game/ player changes result in price shifts, is it an efficient use of CCP bandwidth to fiddle with the mineral content of roids?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Dave Stark
#26 - 2013-03-23 19:44:06 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.


Honest Question:

What happens when market trends change? Should CCP tinker with mineral content each time there is a trend change in order to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them?


no, but this tinkering has nothing to do with market trends. well, it does, but that's not the whole intention.

as it stands, there's an issue with null sec low end mineral supply (basically, it doesn't exist, look at the composition of a large asteroid cluster grav site (the most lucrative of the 5))
also, there's an issue with the whole "risk vs reward" thing with mining. high sec is basically risk free AND has the highest rewards. that, to me, doesn't make sense.

I don't think ccp should tinker with the market every time there's a shift in prices, no. that's the beauty of eve's economy.
however, i think there is a case for it to be done here due to the fact that the current prices and quite frankly ******** situation we're faced with now is pretty much a direct result of the drone region loot changes an exception should be made.

i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#27 - 2013-03-23 20:09:17 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".



God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Ugh Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Dave Stark
#28 - 2013-03-23 20:17:37 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".



God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Ugh Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite.


i completely agree, scordite is my go-to these days and it's a bit of a pain. i kinda gave up on short cycling and just thought "even incomplete cycles are less of a pain than constantly watching intel/local AND having to haul to jita so bugger it".
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#29 - 2013-03-23 20:27:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".



God is Scordite a pain to mine though. I monitor my cycles for efficiency and they are usually only 1 1/2 -2 Cycles Ugh Even though it's a reality it's hard to believe the demand for Pyerite.


i completely agree, scordite is my go-to these days and it's a bit of a pain. i kinda gave up on short cycling and just thought "even incomplete cycles are less of a pain than constantly watching intel/local AND having to haul to jita so bugger it".




Yeah, I usually just let the 2nd cycle complete. It's really a bother with 2 Hulks to manage (and an Orca that tractors and salvages).

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Dave Stark
#30 - 2013-03-23 20:31:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
oh yeah, i've been using my mackinaw instead of my hulk lately. then i've also been cutting through my long list of things people keep telling me to watch.

in other news.

EvE: Odyssey wrote:
A NEW "SPACESCAPE"
A rebalance of major areas of space from highsec to nullsec include changes in exploration sites, industrial resources, some types of NPC loot and more…

potential Oreicide in june?
Javajunky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-03-23 21:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Javajunky
Honest Question:

What happens when market trends change? Should CCP tinker with mineral content each time there is a trend change in order to keep the ISK/hr figures where you want them?[/quote]

Fair question indeed. Although its off topic from OP, CCP removed drone poo from null sec and at the same time did some heavy handed bot banning. They overshot when it came to compensating for High End Minerals and it would be fair to say they slightly underestimated the amount of low ends that were being vacuumed up by these folks. Net Net isk per hour nose dived in Null Sec and Shot way up in Empire.

Note today's announcement at PAX East I'm guessing my OP items may prove to be valid. We'll have to wait and see, but if I were a market scrub, I'd be buying up Zyd. Disclaimer: I am not a market trader, I do not pretend to speak to the nubs in Market Forums, financial results may vary, as always its recommended you seek professional advice from your personal investment adviser.
Zircon Dasher
#32 - 2013-03-23 22:00:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Dave Stark wrote:
no, but this tinkering has nothing to do with market trends. well, it does, but that's not the whole intention.

as it stands, there's an issue with null sec low end mineral supply (basically, it doesn't exist, look at the composition of a large asteroid cluster grav site (the most lucrative of the 5))
also, there's an issue with the whole "risk vs reward" thing with mining. high sec is basically risk free AND has the highest rewards. that, to me, doesn't make sense.

I don't think ccp should tinker with the market every time there's a shift in prices, no. that's the beauty of eve's economy.
however, i think there is a case for it to be done here due to the fact that the current prices and quite frankly ******** situation we're faced with now is pretty much a direct result of the drone region loot changes an exception should be made.

i'm not the only one who thinks this situation is a bit backwards, i even asked mynnna in his CSM thread what he thought about the fact that scordite is worth more isk/m3 than ANY of the grav sites in sov null and his reply was "****'s ****** up".


If your argument is that the Drone Nerf caused low end minerals to sky rocket:

Then, logically, your ISK/HR complaint amounts to being mad that people in highsec are not mining enough low ends--since there is not a supply shortage of low end roids in highsec-- or that people are preventing/disguising the supply in a way that keeps market forces from pushing the price down. Any complaint about risk v reward also amounts to the same thing. Highsec rewards are too good for the risk....because people are not doing the thing that generates the rewards (or it is being manipulated in some other way).

Now suppose that CCP intervenes and changes the mineral content of roids in non-high sec space: In the short term, miners make more ISK/Hr, but that ISK/Hr is predicated upon highsec miners NOT mining/ interdicted/ disguising minerals. When, not if, that stops the changes will have been pointless. The initial changes will be for naught when judged by the ISK/HR for obvious reasons, and the changes will be for naught when judged by industrial demands because it will once again be more efficient to import from Empire.

I am all for making life for industrialists and miners better in Null, but a mineral distribution change does not address the problems [edit] IN ISOLATION[/edit]


just sayin.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Javajunky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-03-23 22:01:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Javajunky
Dave Stark wrote:
i completely agree, the risk/reward factor with mining is horrible as it stands right now.

however removing ABCs from grav sites is only going to make that worse. what needs removing is the low quality ores such as spod and gneiss. however, if we simply "delete" them, as it were then we end up with grav sites that have too high a proportion of high ends, which will crash their prices and also be bad.

my favourite solutionsolution is to remove low quality ores, by stopping them being low quality by adding more low end minerals to them. this increases their isk/hour slightly, whilst also decreasing the isk/hour of low end ores such as veld/scord due to the increased supply of things like trit/pyerite/mexallon etc. in addition, this also addresses the low end mineral bottle neck experienced by 0.0 industry.


I wasn't referencing the removal of all ABC's from the Grav, I was only referencing the additional rocks that were added during the Drone Poo Nerf.

Extra 70K Crok added to the Medium
Extra 100K Bistot + 35K Arkanor in the Large
Extra 100K Bistot + 150K Crok added to the XL
Not sure what happened in the Giant...Bloodtear Brosefs feel free to chime in.

Honestly you could pull these back out and you would restore null sec isk/per hour pretty easily. Personally I don't really think there needs to be a change in to the low end ores. they seem to be working as intended my empire mining friends are happy campers. Even if they do push more high ends out into Null space, CCP is not going be able to get that many more people mining in null to support the vast amount of ships required, figure it more like they are going to hook up the miners who like mining and make it better but they aren't going cut the empire miners legs out from under them. CCP loves miners and really does want them to be happy. It's all about the OCD multi-boxers and keeping them addicted and growing. They've got a separate department for ADHD and that is called PVP :)
Dave Stark
#34 - 2013-03-23 22:17:24 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
stuff that barely makes sense.

k

Javajunky wrote:
I wasn't referencing the removal of all ABC's from the Grav, I was only referencing the additional rocks that were added during the Drone Poo Nerf.

Extra 70K Crok added to the Medium
Extra 100K Bistot + 35K Arkanor in the Large
Extra 100K Bistot + 150K Crok added to the XL
Not sure what happened in the Giant...Bloodtear Brosefs feel free to chime in.

Honestly you could pull these back out and you would restore null sec isk/per hour pretty easily. Personally I don't really think there needs to be a change in to the low end ores. they seem to be working as intended my empire mining friends are happy campers. Even if they do push more high ends out into Null space, CCP is not going be able to get that many more people mining in null to support the vast amount of ships required, figure it more like they are going to hook up the miners who like mining and make it better but they aren't going cut the empire miners legs out from under them. CCP loves miners and really does want them to be happy. It's all about the OCD multi-boxers and keeping them addicted and growing. They've got a separate department for ADHD and that is called PVP :)


hmm i have no idea when those changes took place. i thought they were before the drone changes? i could be mistaken, of course.

i don't want them to cut empire miners legs out from under them; i just want null sec to be a place i'd want to go and mine. as it stands i've got to follow some big ass alliances rules and regulations, and get my stuff all the way from null to jita, AND all for less isk? why would any one want to do that? there's a reason most of the mining happens in high sec; because it's the only place where it's really viable as a "profession".
Javajunky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2013-03-23 22:29:33 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Zircon Dasher wrote:
stuff that barely makes sense.

k

hmm i have no idea when those changes took place. i thought they were before the drone changes? i could be mistaken, of course.

i don't want them to cut empire miners legs out from under them; i just want null sec to be a place i'd want to go and mine. as it stands i've got to follow some big ass alliances rules and regulations, and get my stuff all the way from null to jita, AND all for less isk? why would any one want to do that? there's a reason most of the mining happens in high sec; because it's the only place where it's really viable as a "profession".


It came out one cycle before the drone poo change. I can't remember dates but I remember going drool... this is so cool something must be changing and a couple months later the word on drone poo hit the street. Drone Poo and Bot Sweeps hit about the same time if I remember correctly (anyone else got some dates feel free to throw em in).
Dave Stark
#36 - 2013-03-23 22:38:12 UTC
Javajunky wrote:
It came out one cycle before the drone poo change. I can't remember dates but I remember going drool... this is so cool something must be changing and a couple months later the word on drone poo hit the street. Drone Poo and Bot Sweeps hit about the same time if I remember correctly (anyone else got some dates feel free to throw em in).


ah righty.
still, they need to be careful about the proportion of minerals from the grav sites. the worst thing that could happen is crashing high end mineral prices.
Zircon Dasher
#37 - 2013-03-23 23:25:40 UTC
Javajunky wrote:
Although its off topic from OP, CCP removed drone poo from null sec and at the same time did some heavy handed bot banning. They overshot when it came to compensating for High End Minerals and it would be fair to say they slightly underestimated the amount of low ends that were being vacuumed up by these folks. Net Net isk per hour nose dived in Null Sec and Shot way up in Empire.

Note today's announcement at PAX East I'm guessing my OP items may prove to be valid. We'll have to wait and see


Compensating the high ends probably was overdone, but I am not sure that low-ends were underestimated. To be sure a shitton of low ends were being produced, but after the nerf a lot of people just found other things to do besides generate minerals, so the short-fall was never picked up. I was under the impression that the majority of people who were grinding high-ends with mining lasers never really changed their behavior. Is that playing semantics? Kinda. The difference only matters when you think about EVE as an ecosystem.

Here is to hoping that whatever changes are coming down the pike are based in reason and not how many players beleive x or y.

BTW: Sorry for the off-topic posts. And +1 in regards to the OP.

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Javajunky
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-03-23 23:35:08 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Compensating the high ends probably was overdone, but I am not sure that low-ends were underestimated. To be sure a shitton of low ends were being produced, but after the nerf a lot of people just found other things to do besides generate minerals, so the short-fall was never picked up. I was under the impression that the majority of people who were grinding high-ends with mining lasers never really changed their behavior. Is that playing semantics? Kinda. The difference only matters when you think about EVE as an ecosystem.

Here is to hoping that whatever changes are coming down the pike are based in reason and not how many players beleive x or y.

BTW: Sorry for the off-topic posts. And +1 in regards to the OP.


I think you are correct, one thing I remember was the drone poo nerf dropped about the same time (around fan fest last year I think) we saw a massive bot sweep by CCP. I'd almost call it the perfect storm for empire miners.
Zircon Dasher
#39 - 2013-03-24 00:08:21 UTC
Javajunky wrote:
I think you are correct, one thing I remember was the drone poo nerf dropped about the same time (around fan fest last year I think) we saw a massive bot sweep by CCP. I'd almost call it the perfect storm for empire miners.


Yeah I don't remember the exact timing. I remember hearing rumors of a crackdown in the weeks prior to the announcement of the nerfs, but....well :rumors:. To be sure it was going to be a boon to high-sec income, but given that a significant portion of the drone mins were not finding their way to the markets I was always skeptical of extent. Doubly so when the products that used up such vast amounts of minerals ceased being produced in such volume. Then again, I am generally skeptical of everything... so maybe that is just me being a negative nancy! I would kill to get my hands on all the internal data housed by those corps/alliances and CCP, just for the fun in analyzing it! lol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#40 - 2013-03-24 12:06:33 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:

stuff


In general, with the botters being gone, people are getting a "living wage" now from mining the lowends (veld, etc). The trouble is, that since the botters were depressing the prices so much for so long, many would-be miners either

- quit eve
- did it long enough to bootstrap something else (missioning, manufacturing)
- did it until they heard about something else that makes boatloads more ISK (incursions/w-space)

So, now there aren't "enough" miners to provide that downward market pressure...

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia