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Torps and Cruise Missiles... do they need a boost?

First post
Author
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#81 - 2013-03-22 19:46:18 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
cruise Raven already have the best dps of any T1 ship at 80km. Cruise missiles don't lack damage.

Why would you consider DPS at 80km relevant and discard damage at, say, 130 or 40? Please, elaborate Big smile

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#82 - 2013-03-22 19:55:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Naomi Knight wrote:
tengus can keep range , battleships cant
long range turrets can insta popp ships , cruise missiles cant
add the two togeather and logic will say cruise missiles lack efficiency for pvp---> they lack dmg

CM lack efficiency
Hence, CM lack damage.
Awesome logic, because efficiency = damage obviously.

BTW, the Raven is faster than any tier3 BS but the Hyperion ; and CM don't care about tracking anyway, so the need to keep range isn't that important. Moreover, Raven can have a heavy neutralizer, and then be able to fight back if something manage to come close.

Quote:
Why would you consider DPS at 80km relevant and discard damage at, say, 130 or 40?

When I said at 80km, I implyed "and beyond".

For a LR ship, dps at range is quite useful IMO... Of course, below 80km, other weapons compete. At 40km, it's more the realm of short range weapons.
Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-03-23 15:11:04 UTC
Might add that T2 torp launchers could use some fitting nerfs, especially CPU wise :>
Stan'din
Pandemic Alpha
Prepare to be Boarded
#84 - 2013-03-23 15:34:28 UTC
Stealth bombers are great, but Torps are lacking in PVP

Your about as much use as a condom dispenser in the Vatican.

Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#85 - 2013-03-23 15:38:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Quote:

For a LR ship, dps at range is quite useful IMO... Of course, below 80km, other weapons compete. At 40km, it's more the realm of short range weapons.

Dunno, I'd gladly trade half of my cruise missile range for something else, like decent damage. Prior to heavy missiles nerf damage output of cruise missiles was pretty much on par with heavies, that's just too little. As for range, it's excessive, you rarely shoot past 60-100 under most circumstances. 40km is still a valid mark for cruise missiles since using (javelin) torps at this range makes very little sense.

All in all, damage diagram of cruise missiles is skewed towards extreme ranges, which simply are not that common. The same reason why blasters caused so much whinning, just the reversed case.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#86 - 2013-03-23 15:46:31 UTC
Stan'din wrote:
Stealth bombers are great, but Torps are lacking in PVP


Then buff torps, and add an inherent role penalty to SBers to even it out.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#87 - 2013-03-23 15:47:49 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


BTW, the Raven is faster than any tier3 BS but the Hyperion ; and CM don't care about tracking anyway, so the need to keep range isn't that important. Moreover, Raven can have a heavy neutralizer, and then be able to fight back if something manage to come close.


For a LR ship, dps at range is quite useful IMO... Of course, below 80km, other weapons compete. At 40km, it's more the realm of short range weapons.



Raven is a Tier 2 BS, and of all the Battleships combined, only 2 are slower. Rokh and Abaddon go 89 M/S at base speed. Next slowest are Raven, Scorpion, Apoc, Maelstrom.
Caldari BS line up is actually the slowest base speed of all the races.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#88 - 2013-03-23 16:27:54 UTC
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Quote:

For a LR ship, dps at range is quite useful IMO... Of course, below 80km, other weapons compete. At 40km, it's more the realm of short range weapons.

Dunno, I'd gladly trade half of my cruise missile range for something else, like decent damage. Prior to heavy missiles nerf damage output of cruise missiles was pretty much on par with heavies, that's just too little. As for range, it's excessive, you rarely shoot past 60-100 under most circumstances. 40km is still a valid mark for cruise missiles since using (javelin) torps at this range makes very little sense.

All in all, damage diagram of cruise missiles is skewed towards extreme ranges, which simply are not that common. The same reason why blasters caused so much whinning, just the reversed case.



indeed which is why want to see tc/te/td's work on missiles...

just reduce the cruise range and increase damage... if you want longer range then put on a TE... i know at some point ccp was thinking about doing this as per fozzie but for some reason they decided to see the effects of the HML nerf before doing this...

Hopefully for the summer expansion we weill see a generic cruise/torp boost and allow te/rc/td to affect missiles.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Babylon Resurrection
RENEGADES YIY HEKATEK
#89 - 2013-03-24 17:58:04 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
I

Then again I am not sure if CCP still is thinking about making te/tc/td work for missiles in general and we would also have to take into account any changes that they could bring to the table…

So GD community what do you feel the changes if at all should be…

Also in before… Wrong forum… and the usual DIAF from the trolls…Roll




I posted a new thread about TE/TC equivalents for Missiles boats<
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=218496&find=unread

I think it would be a good idea to have them
Ager Agemo
Rainbow Ponies Incorporated
#90 - 2013-03-25 05:47:56 UTC
As a former owner of a max skilled and fitted golem i can say missiles are VASTLY underpowered compared to turrets, nowadays i fly a vargur, which at least pve wise can easily kill npc frigates at 12 kms with its main guns, and hit with nice damage up to 120 kilometers.

now my golem used to BARELY reach its torps to 60kms and even if they were to hit a dual target painted ship at that range along with all the hull bonuses, some angel battleships would cut half or even more damage, and the only thing i was ever able to properly hit was some serpentis ships at 20 kilometers, were the target painters didnt suffer of any falloff and they were slow as hell.


right now ANy ship with an afterburner which is pretty much an obligatory module will cut any missile damage by near 1/4

and after doing some testing it seems mwding condors and frigates in general actually just dont care at all about missiles regardless of size, with the sole exception of rapid firing caracals, but that only means the caracal is a VERY nice cruiser when using frigate sized missiles on an odd weapon that dosnt exists in other classes.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#91 - 2013-03-25 09:54:29 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
right now ANy ship with an afterburner which is pretty much an obligatory module will cut any missile damage by near 1/4

and after doing some testing it seems mwding condors and frigates in general actually just dont care at all about missiles regardless of size, with the sole exception of rapid firing caracals, but that only means the caracal is a VERY nice cruiser when using frigate sized missiles on an odd weapon that dosnt exists in other classes.

LoL !

Not denying afterburner will reduce missile damages, but obligatory module ?! :D And web counter AB.

And the omnipresence of condor, hookbill, hawk, kestrel and talwar say a lot about missiles ineffectiveness...
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#92 - 2013-03-25 11:37:01 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
[Not denying afterburner will reduce missile damages, but obligatory module ?! :D And web counter AB.

And the omnipresence of condor, hookbill, hawk, kestrel and talwar say a lot about missiles ineffectiveness...



Why do you keep skipping to small missiles anytime someone tries to show you to problem with LARGE missiles.

To my knowlage the topic is about Cruise and Torps, not about the effectiveness of small missiles in which case I say you're right, small missiles are quite fine.


Large Missiles how ever are not, when you want to consider them as an alround weapon system.

Cruise have use as PvE weapons and only PvE and Torps are use full on specialised ships, like Stealh bombers. And if a weapon is only working on a ship that has the speed of a Frigate and ability to cloak that weapon is seriously lacking.

Oh I'm sorry you can shoot structures with it as well.

Do I have a solution, not right away, though that doesn't mean that they are fine as they are.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#93 - 2013-03-25 12:03:51 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Why do you keep skipping to small missiles anytime someone tries to show you to problem with LARGE missiles.

To my knowlage the topic is about Cruise and Torps, not about the effectiveness of small missiles in which case I say you're right, small missiles are quite fine.


Large Missiles how ever are not, when you want to consider them as an alround weapon system.

Cruise have use as PvE weapons and only PvE and Torps are use full on specialised ships, like Stealh bombers. And if a weapon is only working on a ship that has the speed of a Frigate and ability to cloak that weapon is seriously lacking.

Oh I'm sorry you can shoot structures with it as well.

Do I have a solution, not right away, though that doesn't mean that they are fine as they are.

If you read what I quoted, you will see that he was talking about condor and caracal. And please, tell me more about how comon these AB BS are these days ! :D

And yes, I know about large missiles : they can't blap frigates so they are terrible ! And torp, they can't apply blasters dps at 100km, they are definitely terrible ! And cruise, they don't compete with short range weapon, they are terrible !
Bi-Mi Lansatha
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#94 - 2013-03-25 12:48:07 UTC

MeBiatch wrote:
I am asking eve GD (well eve ships and mods now) about their various opinions regarding Torps and Cruise Missiles...

What are their strengths?

Where do they lack that special sauce...
My experience is PvE only (L4s/Cruise only)

Strengths: Cruise missiles have damage selection and constant damage at all ranges.

Lacking: To make cruise truly effective you have to devote a lot of your slots to this goal, but when you do it they are good. Support skills and Tech 2 missiles are also a must.

A Navy Raven has 5 low slots, 6 mid slots and 3 rigs slots. Filling four low slots with Caldari Ballistic Controls, three rig slots with (rigors) and a target painter in one of the mids is suggested. Out of the 14 slots available for ‘stuff’ 8 of them are used to make Cruises effective.

Cruise missiles are slow. It is not uncommon for me to launch a second flight of missiles before the first one impacts. From experience, I know two volleys will take out certain ships, so I switch targets… but in PvP a fleet commander won’t have that luxury.

Special Sauce (just guessing): Undoubtedly game breaking, but change the dynamic by adding a new missile type… a MJD missile. Increase the targeting time, increase the damage, and increase the reload time. Near instant damage, strong Alpha, long lock time means FC planning, and longer reload times keep the DPS equal to what it has now. PvE unaffected because the current missiles are unchanged.

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#95 - 2013-03-25 12:50:12 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
[Not denying afterburner will reduce missile damages, but obligatory module ?! :D And web counter AB.

And the omnipresence of condor, hookbill, hawk, kestrel and talwar say a lot about missiles ineffectiveness...



Why do you keep skipping to small missiles anytime someone tries to show you to problem with LARGE missiles.

To my knowlage the topic is about Cruise and Torps, not about the effectiveness of small missiles in which case I say you're right, small missiles are quite fine.


Large Missiles how ever are not, when you want to consider them as an alround weapon system.

Cruise have use as PvE weapons and only PvE and Torps are use full on specialised ships, like Stealh bombers. And if a weapon is only working on a ship that has the speed of a Frigate and ability to cloak that weapon is seriously lacking.

Oh I'm sorry you can shoot structures with it as well.

Do I have a solution, not right away, though that doesn't mean that they are fine as they are.

just ignore him , he is a troll , thats all ,
skip his posts ,he will stop posting when nobody relpies to him, thats the only sullution
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#96 - 2013-03-25 13:33:16 UTC
quote=Bouh Revetoile]Do I have a solution, not right away, though that doesn't mean that they are fine as they are.[/quote]
If you read what I quoted, you will see that he was talking about condor and caracal. And please, tell me more about how comon these AB BS are these days ! :D

And yes, I know about large missiles : they can't blap frigates so they are terrible ! And torp, they can't apply blasters dps at 100km, they are definitely terrible ! And cruise, they don't compete with short range weapon, they are terrible ![/quote]

Yes I did see you where talking about, out of a responce you picked something you could use to bring down the post, although it had little to do with it's point.


as you do here again, where did I say that cruise should be competing with short range weapons, I never said that.

Torps with a range of 100KM??????? Even if you do manage a fit that makes that range, it;s the hull that makes it happen not the Torps, weapons are not fine when you need a hull with extrem range and damage, and damage projection bunuses.


as for cruise missiles launchers, they don't compete with long range weapons either, if you look at the Top 20 of marge you see that there are no cruise missiles in there at all (yes there are torps, from insanly bonused ships) there are however large Artillery turrets and large beam lasers, No Rail and no Cruise missiles, so although these weapon systems can do damage at ranges of 80 km and more, there is no use for it or to little.

hence it useful to take a good look at them and make them a little more usable.



Top 20 March
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#97 - 2013-03-25 14:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Top 20 need a lot more studies than this to become an argument.

Besides, I wasn't specificaly answering to you ; a lot of people in this thread complain about cruise not doing enough damage and about torp to be too short range. Yet, cruise Raven is already the T1 BS with the best dps above 80km, and Torp Raven is close from the best T1 close range dps, and its range is not less than insane for such dps. These are facts, numbers, you can check them.

Hence, problem of large missiles is not their dps of their range.

And that's what I criticize a lot : nobody here seem to have any clue about what they are talking about !

Considering the facts I already exposed, large missiles problem is deeper than only some obvious stats you can see in the weapon. And as long as the origin of the problem is not found, nothing will solve it and the best you may achieve is making large missiles OP.

Also, note that there is only two T1 missile BS, and one of them have split weapon system. Hence, large missiles problems are somwhat closely linked to the hull using them.

I already talked about some of what I think may be the problems of large missiles and the Raven :
- the Tengu is better.
- the Raven don't have high resists.
- large missiles can't blap frigates.

The first two reasons may explain why nobody use them in large fleet : the metagame currently favor high resist profile. The tier system may be reason BTW, because there is nothing but tier 3 ships in fleet doctrines. The last reason may explain why nobody like them for smaller scale stuff : their poor damage application to smaller classes make them requiring support to cover these cases.

No one ever said anything about these hypothesis, so, IMO, they may be correct. And no there is no easy fix for these problems : people will complain about large missiles not able to blap frigates until they do blap frigates, but large missiles blaping frigates would be OP. And the Raven will never have high resists, nor it will be faster and with a lower signature than a Tengu, so it will always be subpar to the Tengu, because todays engagement range is not far longer than the operative range of a Tengu ; though the last nerf to HML may bring a brighter future to cruise missiles. As for torpedoes, they will always require a lot of utility to hit smaller targets, because they would be OP otherwise ; and the Raven will always be a shield ship, because it's a caldari ship, and shield will never be able to have a lot of utility, because both use mid slots.

Other than that, Raven and Large missiles seem fine to me. If any, the Typhoon can prove that torpedoes are fine. Large missiles are only a fleet weapon.

PS : I don't know about pve, and I don't really care, because something will always be better than another thing at grinding isks to the level carebears do it.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#98 - 2013-03-25 15:10:12 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Top 20 need a lot more studies than this to become an argument.

.......................

PS : I don't know about pve, and I don't really care, because something will always be better than another thing at grinding isks to the level carebears do it.



That is actualy an intresting reply.

I'll come back at that, short on time now, but there is nice argumentation in that.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#99 - 2013-03-25 16:49:53 UTC
Cruise missiles are fine. If you wanted to adjust flight Velo/Time to keep the same range but shorten the time to hit a little I wouldn't mind.

Torp's have plenty of range and damage. They are lacking on the application of that damage, even after the buff. Any change to this would have to be factored on the SB hulls for balance.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#100 - 2013-03-25 17:01:34 UTC
I really do feel that a lot of the platforms for torps need looking at and not the weapon itself. Raven obviously needs a boost (some PG and slot layout changes, imo). It has the range bonus (much needed for torps) it just needs everything else as a battleship.


Cruise missiles need a velocity increase, right now the only useful thing I find them for is POS bashing and watching missiles keep hitting a primaried target once it gets back into the POS shields, believing it is safe and just narrowly escaped death....nope chuck testa Big smile