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A Call for Tibus Heth to be Tried for War Crimes
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Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#1 - 2013-03-23 01:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rall Mekin
I begin this with heavy heart, but in conjunction with my call for a Neutral Caldari Prime Provisional Government, I must also call for Tibus Heth to surrender himself to justice and stand trial under the jurisdiction of CONCORD in a neutral court for Conspiracy to Commit Genocide and Other Crimes Against Humanity.

I will not be so long as in my other post. Let us just all agree: It is indisputable that the Shiigeru, a Leviathan class Titan, was ordered to fire her super weapon upon a homeworld of billions. These people are not immortals like us, they are mortals. They have only that frail, brief life, as opposed to our near-infinite existence.

TIBUS HETH MUST IMMEDIATELY SURRENDER HIS OFFICE AND SUBMIT HIMSELF TO CONCORD FOR TRIAL. IDEAS OF GENOCIDE CANNOT BE TOLERATED BY ANY CIVILIZED PEOPLE, EVEN IF MY OWN.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-03-23 01:29:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
I am one of the most outspoken people who absolutely despise Tibus Heth with every fiber of my being. I think he should step down or be removed from power if he isn't willing to do the honorable thing.

However, I don't feel that there is significant evidence to have Tibus Heth tried of war crimes. Sure, he has said some pretty nasty things, but no worse than his opponents to be perfectly honest with you.

If evidence can be found that Tibus Heth is directly responsible for all these atrocities, then I'm all for it. I want to see him rot behind a forcefield for the rest of his life.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
iyammarrok
Drunken Beaver Mining
Gnawthority
#3 - 2013-03-23 01:35:44 UTC
Fred.

'I was only following orders' isn't a valid defence.
My guess is 'I only gave the orders, I wasn't the one who actually did it' doesn't hold water either.

Just a thought

Not indicative of corporate policy unless otherwise stated.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-03-23 01:50:18 UTC
iyammarrok wrote:
Fred.

'I was only following orders' isn't a valid defence.
My guess is 'I only gave the orders, I wasn't the one who actually did it' doesn't hold water either.

Just a thought


They certainly aren't. However, there is no evidence that can be obtained that proves Heth did these things. We can speculate and assume. He probably did order a lot of the atrocities.

However, if we are going to put him on trial, we are going to do this the right way. We need to show that proper justice will triumph over evil. If we screw up this trial and just play judge, jury, and executioner than he won't be made an example of, and nothing will change.

No matter how obviously guilty a man might be, we still need evidence to convict him.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Zsaryna Adrelana
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-03-23 01:53:31 UTC
War crimes?
What's a war crime?
Honestly given the numbers of people we kill on a daily basis I don't think any empyreans should start throwing the word 'war crime' around lightly.
Clearly Heth has failed in the meritocratic traditions of the Caldari people. He should probably consider a sit down and a nice stiff cup of tea right about now

I do this for many reasons. I do it because I believe it is right. I do it because I will profit by it. These all consolidate into one reason: I do it because I can.
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#6 - 2013-03-23 01:53:32 UTC
He should be tried for putting an incompetent admiral in charge of the Caldari Prime defense fleet.

Who's a waste of biomass now, Admiral?

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#7 - 2013-03-23 01:56:08 UTC
Zsaryna Adrelana wrote:

Clearly Heth has failed in the meritocratic traditions of the Caldari people. He should probably consider a sit down and a nice stiff cup of tea right about now


I imagine after today's events such could very well happen.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#8 - 2013-03-23 01:56:45 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
iyammarrok wrote:
Fred.

'I was only following orders' isn't a valid defence.
My guess is 'I only gave the orders, I wasn't the one who actually did it' doesn't hold water either.

Just a thought


They certainly aren't. However, there is no evidence that can be obtained that proves Heth did these things. We can speculate and assume. He probably did order a lot of the atrocities.

However, if we are going to put him on trial, we are going to do this the right way. We need to show that proper justice will triumph over evil. If we screw up this trial and just play judge, jury, and executioner than he won't be made an example of, and nothing will change.

No matter how obviously guilty a man might be, we still need evidence to convict him.


I do not believe Titans of the empires descend into low orbit and threaten to deploy super weapons without their heads of state being in the loop.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-03-23 02:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fredfredbug4
Rall Mekin wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
iyammarrok wrote:
Fred.

'I was only following orders' isn't a valid defence.
My guess is 'I only gave the orders, I wasn't the one who actually did it' doesn't hold water either.

Just a thought


They certainly aren't. However, there is no evidence that can be obtained that proves Heth did these things. We can speculate and assume. He probably did order a lot of the atrocities.

However, if we are going to put him on trial, we are going to do this the right way. We need to show that proper justice will triumph over evil. If we screw up this trial and just play judge, jury, and executioner than he won't be made an example of, and nothing will change.

No matter how obviously guilty a man might be, we still need evidence to convict him.


I do not believe Titans of the empires descend into low orbit and threaten to deploy super weapons without their heads of state being in the loop.


Keep in mind that even if he ordered the Titan into low-orbit, it didn't fire its weapons. As far as I know, simply putting a ship in low-orbit isn't a warcrime. Same thing goes for making the threat of using the weapons.

It would of only been a warcrime if the Shiigeru opened fire on the planet which to our knowledge it did not. Keep in mind that because of the blackouts and communications errors, it is very difficult to understand what is truly going on.

I hope I'm not sounding like I am Defending heth. I want to see him punished as much as the next guy, but we have to do it the right way in order for it to hold any meaning.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2013-03-23 02:09:02 UTC
Sakura Nihil wrote:
He should be tried for putting an incompetent admiral in charge of the Caldari Prime defense fleet.

Who's a waste of biomass now, Admiral?

Usually I criticise people for being this smug, but in this instance, I can't possibly think of anyone more justified than yourself.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#11 - 2013-03-23 02:21:19 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Rall Mekin wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
iyammarrok wrote:
Fred.

'I was only following orders' isn't a valid defence.
My guess is 'I only gave the orders, I wasn't the one who actually did it' doesn't hold water either.

Just a thought


They certainly aren't. However, there is no evidence that can be obtained that proves Heth did these things. We can speculate and assume. He probably did order a lot of the atrocities.

However, if we are going to put him on trial, we are going to do this the right way. We need to show that proper justice will triumph over evil. If we screw up this trial and just play judge, jury, and executioner than he won't be made an example of, and nothing will change.

No matter how obviously guilty a man might be, we still need evidence to convict him.


I do not believe Titans of the empires descend into low orbit and threaten to deploy super weapons without their heads of state being in the loop.


Keep in mind that even if he ordered the Titan into low-orbit, it didn't fire its weapons. As far as I know, simply putting a ship in low-orbit isn't a warcrime. Same thing goes for making the threat of using the weapons.

It would of only been a warcrime if the Shiigeru opened fire on the planet which to our knowledge it did not. Keep in mind that because of the blackouts and communications errors, it is very difficult to understand what is truly going on.

I hope I'm not sounding like I am Defending heth. I want to see him punished as much as the next guy, but we have to do it the right way in order for it to hold any meaning.
I have to agree.

Political posturing and being a complete bastard are not war crimes. Many things were said, but we can only judge actions, and I don't think any actions Heth took can been deemed as warcrimes.

I do believe that Heth should either step down or be forcibly removed by the leadership of the Caldari megacorporations. He is a poison to the state and our way of life and shares responsibility in the escalations of the current hostilities.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#12 - 2013-03-23 02:56:10 UTC
The Titan did not fire it's weapons on Caldari Prime, it threatened to. Threatening to fire it's weapons on Caldari Prime has been State policy for five years. No additional threats were made. No actual actions were taken.

As far as Admiral Yanala being incompetent - anyone actually on the field today will attest that the odds were such that Home Fleet never stood a prayer of a chance. They fought and died with honour - as I'm sure their orders required.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-03-23 02:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Markus Reese
I am in consensus with the majority. The Caldari fleet was positioning and for all intents appeared to be a threat. Also refused to acknowledge a DED veteran's orders to power down. This is an issue I am still pondering on to who was in the right and wrong, so will have to leave it.

In the end, unless official logs of the order arise, then no charges can be laid. The damage to the planet is a result of the Gallente's agression. The ships only had one direction to go, and that was down onto the populous. Bad judgements, yes. Crimes, no.

I will also point out that 7km of the ship's hull crashed at sub terminal velocities. This means that Admiral and all crew had to be manning the ship right until impact using remaining systems to keep the speed at bay. If there truely was a command to attack, then the firepower on the fields could easily have done considerable damage right from the start to the surface or Gallente orbital stations. Even when it was in it's final moments, he could have rammed the ship right into the Gallente section of the populous he was over, but didn't.

While the Caldari soldiers fought like true Caldari, for the Caldari people, a byproduct is Heth's power is more secure than ever before.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#14 - 2013-03-23 03:08:42 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
As far as Admiral Yanala being incompetent - anyone actually on the field today will attest that the odds were such that Home Fleet never stood a prayer of a chance.

Never stood a chance, huh?

Let me ask you this, as you seem to have been there. What destroyed the CONCORD vessel that (stupidly) decided to venture too close to Caldari Prime?

What weapon systems, specifically?

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#15 - 2013-03-23 03:32:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Rall Mekin
Sakura Nihil wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
As far as Admiral Yanala being incompetent - anyone actually on the field today will attest that the odds were such that Home Fleet never stood a prayer of a chance.

Never stood a chance, huh?

Let me ask you this, as you seem to have been there. What destroyed the CONCORD vessel that (stupidly) decided to venture too close to Caldari Prime?

What weapon systems, specifically?


As I'm saying, its pretty obvious the Caldari government must be investigated, especially Heth. He should step down and turn himself in. I'm pretty sure shortly there will be more than enough evidence to convict him. Like I said, that Titan had been there for years with a superweapon intended to destroy the planet...
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#16 - 2013-03-23 04:38:11 UTC
Rall Mekin wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
As far as Admiral Yanala being incompetent - anyone actually on the field today will attest that the odds were such that Home Fleet never stood a prayer of a chance.

Never stood a chance, huh?

Let me ask you this, as you seem to have been there. What destroyed the CONCORD vessel that (stupidly) decided to venture too close to Caldari Prime?

What weapon systems, specifically?


As I'm saying, its pretty obvious the Caldari government must be investigated, especially Heth. He should step down and turn himself in. I'm pretty sure shortly there will be more than enough evidence to convict him. Like I said, that Titan had been there for years with a superweapon intended to destroy the planet...

Convict him of what?

As I said, I have a very low opinion of Heth, but unless you have something concrete, all this talk is meaningless.