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Should Ganking be profitable?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#381 - 2013-03-22 21:43:56 UTC
Pray tell, why shan't you profit from others' folly?

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#382 - 2013-03-22 21:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Whitehound wrote:

You are complacent, too, when you think ganking should be this easy.


Have you tried it? The gank itself is the only visible and extremely quick part of the operation.

The real work goes on behind the scenes, a lot of planning and organisation goes into a gank, somebody has to organise enough pilots to complete the task at hand, somebody has to scout and ship scan for potential victims as well as provide warpins, somebody has to make multiple pre bookmarked insta undocks (for the flashy reds), somebody has to FC and know what they're doing, somebody has to lure Concord away from the immediate area of operation, somebody has to complete the task of preseeding ships and modules for the gankers to be able to replace their concorded vessels at a favourable price, somebody has to beat the vultures to looting the spoils, while trying not to explode.

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#383 - 2013-03-22 21:59:55 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Maybe because it is too easy. Compare how complicated it is to manufacture T2 items - from getting moon goo, to protecting moons, to reactions, to invention - with how easy it is to loot a wreck. Or take officer items and how rare they are, and when they drop does it need only little repair if any at all and it is like new.

It would not hurt the game if the 50% drop chance would get replaced by something more complex and fun. People often point out how stupid WoW is and then they get all sparkly eyes when they seeessz preccessioussz lootszz.

If manufacturing a T2 module is so :effort: why is the cost equivalent to shooting a battleship or two for bounty in a high sec L4 mission?

I think we'll agree looting a 0.7 belt rat wreck is not the same as looting the wreck of a ganked freighter on a populated gate. So it's not just "looting a wreck".

Officer items are rare. Officer fit mission boats worth ganking are equally rare.

It's not a undock f1 loot dock repeat process like some people like to believe. Ganking takes :effort: from a coordinated group of characters, if not people. From finding the target, getting enough people, getting the right ships with the right fit in the right place, to setting up the gank itself and pulling it off, to securing the loot, to turning it into ISK. Finally down to issuing payouts and replacing losses to set up the next one.

It's not F1 > loot > magical ISK in wallet. It takes planning and effort from multiple people. These people should be rewarded for their efforts in capitalizing on the failures of their target.

I'm also all for complex and fun. Let me run a salvager on a targeted ship to strip fitted modules off it while I hold it tackled on a gate at half structure. Loot sparkles a hell of a lot brighter when you wrestle it away from another player. Not when it's handed to you from a lottery after successfully getting Timmey to stop standing in the fire. Then made obsolete three months later with another patch.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Whitehound
#384 - 2013-03-22 22:01:10 UTC
Andski wrote:
Pray tell, why shan't you profit from others' folly?

Everyone profits from others - traders, miners, industrialists, etc.. It is about how you do it.

Players have complained about ECM being a stupid mechanic, because it is chance-based and an "all or nothing" mechanic. So what about looting? Why does it not matter there when loot drops with a fixed 50% chance?

Or take the suspect flagging when taking from a wreck. Why is it needed? When you mine the asteroid of someone else does one not get suspect flagged, but I am sure some would love to see this happen.

Get rid of the fixed drop chance, get rid of suspect flagging, and make looting+salvaging a full profession. It does not have to be like mining where one points a device at a wreck for 50 minutes to get something out of it, but it would remove the "cookie jar" image of looting.

Let us make EVE colder and harsher. There is no need for looting to be sweet.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#385 - 2013-03-22 22:03:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188 wrote:
I dont need to prove my opinion.
No-one is asking you to.
I'm simply asking you to prove that you have the slightest shred of coherent thought behind your claim — something you can do by answering a simple question: why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Quote:
I have stated my case
No. You've made a “should”-claim without explaining why it “should” be that way. You have presented no case at all.

Quote:
Soundwave said what he said and it was quoted I agree with him
So you agree, then, that there's nothing to preclude ganking from being profitable — you know, what he actually said, and what was the end result of the changes (since they were not intended to make ganking unprofitable). Good. So why do you keep claiming that it shouldn't be? And why shouldn't it be profitable?

By the way, here's a quote for you to consider…

“However, the idea behind the “risk versus reward” motto so often used here is that it should apply to everyone – including to the side suicide ganking for shiny loot. We do not contest the profitability of the profession, nor do we deny Hulk pilots had the option to fit a tank to protect themselves (which they often failed to do indeed), what we wanted to achieve here is to give more time for them to react if they don’t fit one.”

So no. You should be able to profit from ganking. The purpose of the barge changes was never to make it unprofitable to gank them.

Oh, and a question for you. A real quick one that you should be able to answer without hesitation or silly evasion attempts: why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Whitehound wrote:
Players have complained about ECM being a stupid mechanic, because it is chance-based and an "all or nothing" mechanic. So what about looting? Why does it not matter there when loot drops with a fixed 50% chance?
Because it's not all or nothing. Because it is a fixed chance, rather than something that may without fail remove all randomness. Because we aren't talking about the most detested of all combat effects — stun.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#386 - 2013-03-22 22:27:48 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Maybe because it is too easy. Compare how complicated it is to manufacture T2 items - from getting moon goo, to protecting moons, to reactions, to invention - with how easy it is to loot a wreck. Or take officer items and how rare they are, and when they drop does it need only little repair if any at all and it is like new.

It would not hurt the game if the 50% drop chance would get replaced by something more complex and fun. People often point out how stupid WoW is and then they get all sparkly eyes when they seeessz preccessioussz lootszz.


It's exactly as easy to gank for profit as the victims make it.

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mag's
Azn Empire
#387 - 2013-03-22 22:31:07 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Maybe because it is too easy. Compare how complicated it is to manufacture T2 items - from getting moon goo, to protecting moons, to reactions, to invention - with how easy it is to loot a wreck. Or take officer items and how rare they are, and when they drop does it need only little repair if any at all and it is like new.

It would not hurt the game if the 50% drop chance would get replaced by something more complex and fun. People often point out how stupid WoW is and then they get all sparkly eyes when they seeessz preccessioussz lootszz.
They have choices to not make it easy.

So why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Whitehound
#388 - 2013-03-22 22:31:59 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
It's exactly as easy to gank for profit as the victims make it.

So let us change it, and if they players do not change then change the game.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#389 - 2013-03-22 22:33:22 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
It's exactly as easy to gank for profit as the victims make it.

So let us change it, and if they players do not change then change the game.


They did that already, they gave barges a built in tank, look how well that's working out.

Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#390 - 2013-03-22 22:41:00 UTC
Whitehound wrote:

You are complacent, too, when you think ganking should be this easy.


On the contrary, I love it when a potential victim makes my job that much more difficult. Unfortunately it's too much effort for most of them.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#391 - 2013-03-22 22:41:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Players have complained about ECM being a stupid mechanic, because it is chance-based and an "all or nothing" mechanic. So what about looting? Why does it not matter there when loot drops with a fixed 50% chance?

Because it's not all or nothing. Because it is a fixed chance, rather than something that may without fail remove all randomness. Because we aren't talking about the most detested of all combat effects — stun.

More like a Disarm. You can still move and use non-targeted modules.

Loot needs to be random, because that's what creates half the risk in ganking. If the risk was shifted towards securing the loot more so than now (suspect) vs the loot not dropping, it would also likely mean a whole lot more people getting ganked. The threshold would actually be lower. Then we would have more posts like "OMG 100 Goons worked together nerf Goons". Because "they blockaded a high sec system and just get free money cause my hauler alt can't stop a hundred people from securing the loot by himself".

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#392 - 2013-03-22 22:43:31 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
It's exactly as easy to gank for profit as the victims make it.

So let us change it, and if they players do not change then change the game.


Just like CCP has already done 13 times in the past. Players have the power to make the life of a ganker very difficult, but they choose not too. They choose to be victims.

In these cases: Why shouldn't you be able to rob people of their valuables for profit?

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Titus Phook
Doomheim
#393 - 2013-03-22 22:53:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Titus Phook
I'm normally quite anti-pirate, I tend to avoid ship based PvP at all costs and I'm so carebear that I pee rainbows, but I accept that PvP can and does happen regardless. I also profit when stuff explodes, because I sell stuff that either explodes, or causes explosions.

If you're dumb enough to fly a blinged out pimpmobile without taking precautions or choose to abandon your expensive ship in space while you do something else, then you deserve to explode, and lose your stuff. If a ganker can make a profit from someone being daft, then more power to his elbow.

They said I could be anything I wanted, so I became fabulous.
Whitehound
#394 - 2013-03-22 23:04:29 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
On the contrary, I love it when a potential victim makes my job that much more difficult.

Let us change the game so that it is always difficult. You would still be able to rob people and you would love it much more.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#395 - 2013-03-22 23:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Whitehound wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
On the contrary, I love it when a potential victim makes my job that much more difficult.

Let us change the game so that it is always difficult. You would still be able to rob people and you would love it much more.

If CCP could patch stupidity, they'd be omnipotent deities. Ganking isn't a game balance problem, it's a social problem.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#396 - 2013-03-23 00:00:06 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
On the contrary, I love it when a potential victim makes my job that much more difficult.

Let us change the game so that it is always difficult. You would still be able to rob people and you would love it much more.


The game isn't what needs changing (there's been enough changes in favour of people too lazy to mitigate the risks already). The way people choose to play is what needs to be changed & only those people can change that.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#397 - 2013-03-23 00:22:39 UTC
Andski wrote:
Pray tell, why shan't you profit from others' folly?


That's why I love the markets (and EvE markets), there's no hi sec bullcrap, no immunities, no protection, only small scale, pure PvP. Pirate

In particular, there are plenty of fools ready to buy high or sell low and markets are a perfect battleground to make them lose more than a paltry 200M. Twisted

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#398 - 2013-03-23 01:17:52 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Whitehound wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
It's exactly as easy to gank for profit as the victims make it.

So let us change it, and if they players do not change then change the game.


Why should it be changed? The victims of ganking have complete control over whether they can be profitable to gank and how easy it is for them to be ganked profitably. Why should they have less control over the value of the cargo/fittings of the ship they undock in?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#399 - 2013-03-23 02:11:03 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Whitehound wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
It's exactly as easy to gank for profit as the victims make it.

So let us change it, and if they players do not change then change the game.


Why change it?

People can be perfectly safe right now if they choose to be.
Singulis Pacifica
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#400 - 2013-03-23 02:59:40 UTC
I don't think anything should be changed as such. Ganks should always occur and be profitable. However, I would favor a more severe penalty on the ganker. He can gank, but his sec status should drop dramatically. You can gank, sure, but then you know your sec rating will drop that much that you'll be busy ratting for a few weeks in low and null-sec before you can do it again.