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In 115, do Caldari pilots empathize with how the Gallenteans felt in 110?

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Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#1 - 2013-03-22 20:35:58 UTC
Violence begets violence.

Your just cause does not matter when you use force. If a husband attacks the man who was sleeping with his wife, that man is going to respond in kind.

Your just cause is still just, however, but the moment you use force is the moment you forfeit the opportunity for the opposing side to recognize your righteousness.

Violence begets violence. This is how many Gallenteans felt back in 110, and war has raged for five years. Now, it will be waged for another five.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#2 - 2013-03-22 20:37:00 UTC
The conflict goes back further than 110.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#3 - 2013-03-22 20:37:19 UTC
As an addendum, I felt the same in 110 as many Caldari pilots now feel. I, however, have seen things from a wider angle since then.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#4 - 2013-03-22 20:37:37 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:
The conflict goes back further than 110.


Like I said.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-03-22 20:38:34 UTC
There's been enough violence.

That's why we need to stop. The Titan's gone. Luminaire is ours - all of it. It's not under Provist threat anymore. We can end this all, right now. We can evacuate every last civilian who no longer wants to live on Caldari Prime. We can give the Caldari their planet back. We can prove every Provist in this cluster wrong. We can prove the Gallente Federation is the paragon of morality it always wanted to be.

We can have peace.

It could be so simple.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Markus Reese
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-03-22 20:53:15 UTC
Gallente, you have allowed history to repeat.

Look what we did with one ship and man as martyr.

Now there is a fleet and a whole planet of martyrs.

To quote Lfod Shi

The ratting itself is PvE. Getting away with it is PvP.

BloodBird
The Crucible.
#7 - 2013-03-22 20:56:21 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
There's been enough violence.

That's why we need to stop. The Titan's gone. Luminaire is ours - all of it. It's not under Provist threat anymore. We can end this all, right now. We can evacuate every last civilian who no longer wants to live on Caldari Prime. We can give the Caldari their planet back. We can prove every Provist in this cluster wrong. We can prove the Gallente Federation is the paragon of morality it always wanted to be.

We can have peace.

It could be so simple.


It is never that simple, Andreus. You know this as well as the rest of us do. It might be considered a weakness with our system, that we can't just abandon members of our Union, but this here is truth:

When the Caldari nation-states on Caldari Prime signed the charter and joined with the rest of us, indeed when they helped FOUND this union, they were accepted as members of a pact, a covenant.

This covenant stated among other things that members were part of the whole. They would never be abandoned except in extreme situations. We did not abandon Seyllin, we did not abandon Placid when it came under attack, and we did not abandon Caldari Prime.

If there is to be peace and the Caldari State is to have their origin-world for themselves, they must come to an agreement with the States residing on the planet they desire to own. Or those States has to secede from the Union before-hand. Then they can be conquered or assimilated by anyone strong enough and our nation would not be obliged to help them.

But as long as they are members, as long as they want to remain with this union, as long as the State want the planet they reside on, and as long as they say no, we are bound to help them. We can not forsake them, unless we want to forsake our very existence.

If we could just casually throw anyone of our members to the wolves when it became prudent to do so, we would soon fall apart. The situation is so much more complicated than most people realize.

And that's why this war will not end anytime soon. That is why so many will die.

We all have our integrity and our honor. And they create opposing goals.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#8 - 2013-03-22 20:59:23 UTC
I am unsure if this topic is a wise one at this time. Many are still reeling from the events of the day on both sides.

Empathy is noble when it is sincere and voluntary. Coerced empathy is a cheap shot.

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#9 - 2013-03-22 21:06:51 UTC
None of this would be happening if the Jove had simply used their superior technology to remain hidden. No "good" deed goes unpunished.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#10 - 2013-03-22 21:17:26 UTC
and so it continues. Nothing is learned, nothing is resolved, and we repeat the same ******* bull **** that we have for two hundred years. Maybe we deserve to drag each other down into oblivion..

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#11 - 2013-03-22 21:22:17 UTC
It is not noble, but today I was a vessel for the hatred of a people.

When I return to the State - what do you think they are going to demand of me, once I've atoned for my part in today's loss?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2013-03-22 21:25:21 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
When I return to the State - what do you think they are going to demand of me, once I've atoned for my part in today's loss?

Nothing, if they have any decency.

You fought as hard as you could for what you believed in, and what your nation demanded of you. Few could ask for more than that, and none should. Your nobility is not in question.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Gorion Wassenar
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#13 - 2013-03-22 21:43:11 UTC
If only Gariushi had lived and this useless excuse for a dictator had died instead.

Those of you who fought for this madman gaze back at our home and look. Look at the pride and ego made manifest scaring our home. It's very presence tainting the air with ash and dust. That is what this man has brought the Caldari people. Ashes and dust. If he had any honor left he would fall on his sword. Since he almost certainly won't it is up to you. Bring him a cup of tea and let us move on. Without him.

Rote Kapelle - NOW IN SLIGHTLY MORE LAW ABIDING FLAVOR!

"DRINK STARSI!" ©®™Ownership Group Chairman

Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#14 - 2013-03-22 22:03:03 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
It is not noble, but today I was a vessel for the hatred of a people.

When I return to the State - what do you think they are going to demand of me, once I've atoned for my part in today's loss?


I could not say it any better than Monsieur Ixiris, in truth.

I do not think anyone could ask more of you.
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#15 - 2013-03-22 22:16:32 UTC
Did you Caldari loyalists really feel that the Federation could continue to live with a gun to its head indefinitely? That titan represented a hostile foreign military force in the same system as Gallente Prime. One that could be turned against us at any time for any reason or, no reason or, merely the whim of one madman.

You've just reaped what you sewed today.

I sincerely hope that now, without that Leviathan in orbit, we can sit down and attempt to negotiate a lasting and honorable peace between our governments. Part of that settlement has got to involve returning Caldari Prime to the State.I firmly believe that as long as Caldari Prime is not part of the State and recognized as such that this war will drag out and millions will die. We need to end this cycle of violence here and now.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#16 - 2013-03-22 22:23:11 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:


You've just reaped what you sewed today.



It appears our collective races do alot of that. Time to stop planting the seeds.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#17 - 2013-03-22 22:50:40 UTC
Nick Bete wrote:
Did you Caldari loyalists really feel that the Federation could continue to live with a gun to its head indefinitely? That titan represented a hostile foreign military force in the same system as Gallente Prime. One that could be turned against us at any time for any reason or, no reason or, merely the whim of one madman.

You've just reaped what you sewed today.

I sincerely hope that now, without that Leviathan in orbit, we can sit down and attempt to negotiate a lasting and honorable peace between our governments. Part of that settlement has got to involve returning Caldari Prime to the State.I firmly believe that as long as Caldari Prime is not part of the State and recognized as such that this war will drag out and millions will die. We need to end this cycle of violence here and now.

Our two peoples are surely two seeds from the same bad tree. Luminaire gave birth to the twins Death and Destruction, locked in a seemingly unending spiral of vengeance.

I can agree the titan should not have been there, but it's presence as a bastion against the Gallente shouldn't have been necessary either
I only wish we could have removed Heth from power before this came to pass so that our side could come to the diplomatic table.

Now I wish the Federation would back down and come to the table themselves.


We need a neutral Luminaire for both sides, not an endless cycle of trying to steal planets back from each other.
Caldari prime for the Caldari
Gallente Prime for the Gallente
and a system for peace.
Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-03-22 23:35:40 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
There's been enough violence.

That's why we need to stop. The Titan's gone. Luminaire is ours - all of it. It's not under Provist threat anymore. We can end this all, right now. We can evacuate every last civilian who no longer wants to live on Caldari Prime. We can give the Caldari their planet back. We can prove every Provist in this cluster wrong. We can prove the Gallente Federation is the paragon of morality it always wanted to be.

We can have peace.

It could be so simple.


Perhaps you should have attempted peace before attacking that Titan?

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!

Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2013-03-22 23:37:17 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Nick Bete wrote:


You've just reaped what you sewed today.



It appears our collective races do alot of that. Time to stop planting the seeds.


I watched the Gallente plant a bunch of them today. Quite the crop they have there.

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!

Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
#20 - 2013-03-23 00:10:51 UTC
Xindi Kraid wrote:


We need a neutral Luminaire for both sides, not an endless cycle of trying to steal planets back from each other.
Caldari prime for the Caldari
Gallente Prime for the Gallente
and a system for peace.


Well said.
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