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All good men should come to the aid of the State.
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Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2013-03-22 02:25:14 UTC
Anslo wrote:


No. I just like annoying you. I don't care what race you are, but if you're an *******, you're an *******.


OK, so you were just telling lies for amusement.

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!
Tasiv Deka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#42 - 2013-03-22 08:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tasiv Deka
To be honest if any of you truly wanted a peaceful end to this you would be out there using ECM modules and Drones to keep ANYONE from attacking... while i know the Titan may be immune to Electronic Warfare the rest of the squabbling masses are not... but then again it is human nature to settle things through force rather then diplomacy... and both sides are guilty of that...


I just hope when the real threat surfaces we can put aside all of these issues and realize what is important... because something like this... well... its nothing compared to whats coming.

Oh, Do go on... no seriously ive got nothing better to do then listen to all the petty arguments and feeble trolling attempts... 

The sad thing is i'm not sure if i'm telling the truth.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-03-22 10:51:56 UTC
Tasiv Deka wrote:
To be honest if any of you truly wanted a peaceful end to this you would be out there using ECM modules and Drones to keep ANYONE from attacking... while i know the Titan may be immune to Electronic Warfare the rest of the squabbling masses are not...


While I agree with your sentiment, it simply isn't plausible from a tactical stand point. Applying electronic warfare in enough force to pacify a battle field leads to further escalation, with more and more pilots joining into the fray until there is too many people with guns and not enough people with deterrents. The only way this sort of pacification works is if there are more people with deterrents than there are with guns and unfortunately that isn't the case.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#44 - 2013-03-22 14:18:35 UTC
Adel Khamez wrote:
Lialus Raithe wrote:
You neglect the hostage situation. The State has already "shot first," and continues to hold lives hostage as a deterrent to retaliation while refusing any form of non-aggressive negotiation.

It is obvious you have determined already how to perceive these events, regardless of the objective truths surrounding it so I will refrain from further comment.


You neglect the occupation of the Caldari Homeworld.

And the unwarranted suicide attack on a Caldari station by a Nyx. The State tried reason. That was thrown out along with thousands of Caldari lives.


"They see only what they want, and hear only what suits them."

I have tried for years to make people aware of the idea that all tales have two sides. Or more. People have ignored this truth and marched on with blindfolds over their eyes and plugs in their ears regardless.

I could explain to you how both of these claims of yours is biased to your interpretation and how there are considerably more to them than you seem to think, but I know your kind of person by now. You will not listen, for that makes the world more complicated, and your dogmatic ideas harder to maintain.

So remain a simpleton, then. Ignorance is, after all, bliss.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#45 - 2013-03-22 14:39:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
REDACTED: My deepest apologies to Bloodbird for a grievous misunderstanding of content.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-03-22 14:49:26 UTC
Monsieur Louvaki,

With all due respect (of which I afford you much):

Adel Khamez wrote:

All good men should come to the aid of the State.

And I choose to stand with my friends, and help them fight naked aggression.

Matters are coming to a head, and it looks like Roden is preparing to pull the trigger. We must all do our duty.

If you wish to reject the Federation's aggressive policies,

You neglect the occupation of the Caldari Homeworld.

And the unwarranted suicide attack on a Caldari station by a Nyx. The State tried reason. That was thrown out along with thousands of Caldari lives.


His stance has not been objective, not in the least. I could easily counter every one of these statements with my own, but both sides of the argument would be from a biased stance and neither is objective. History speaks for itself and it damns us both, that is the objective viewpoint.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#47 - 2013-03-22 14:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Simon Louvaki
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Monsieur Louvaki,

His stance has not been objective, not in the least. I could easily counter every one of these statements with my own, but both sides of the argument would be from a biased stance and neither is objective. History speaks for itself and it damns us both, that is the objective viewpoint.


Indeed, comprehension failure on my part as I completely misunderstood the post.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#48 - 2013-03-22 14:56:36 UTC
It is fine.

I should add that I do not fault him for standing beside his allies in these times and doing so proudly and with honor, I would expect nothing less of an ally.
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#49 - 2013-03-22 15:11:29 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
REDACTED: My deepest apologies to Bloodbird for a grievous misunderstanding of content.


Apology accepted. I did not even see what you stated so I have nothing more to say on this matter.

Lialus Raithe wrote:
It is fine.

I should add that I do not fault him for standing beside his allies in these times and doing so proudly and with honor, I would expect nothing less of an ally.


He stands with his allies, yes. Commendable.

There is much pride, yeah. Understandable.

Honorably? No. Shameful.

Honor demands of you to be informed and not intentionally miss-representing facts to your own gain. This is a part of deceit and is often used to make your arguments seem more compelling. The example with the Malkalen incident - if the Nyx had indeed acted on Federal orders, his taunt would be justified. It is a known fact however that it did not, so his claims are false.

I can forgive ignorance, but ignorance can be remedied. To convince someone who ignore the truth because it does not suit his designs is a waste of time, however.

At any rate, enough of this. I will get back to the topic at hand.
Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-03-22 22:44:31 UTC
BloodBird wrote:


Honorably? No. Shameful.

Honor demands of you to be informed and not intentionally miss-representing facts to your own gain. This is a part of deceit and is often used to make your arguments seem more compelling. The example with the Malkalen incident - if the Nyx had indeed acted on Federal orders, his taunt would be justified. It is a known fact however that it did not, so his claims are false.



It is a known fact that the Nyx attacked a Caldari Station, killed thousands of civilians, and then the Federation denied that they had ordered this attack.

All else is conjecture.

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#51 - 2013-03-23 18:13:42 UTC
Adel Khamez wrote:
BloodBird wrote:


Honorably? No. Shameful.

Honor demands of you to be informed and not intentionally miss-representing facts to your own gain. This is a part of deceit and is often used to make your arguments seem more compelling. The example with the Malkalen incident - if the Nyx had indeed acted on Federal orders, his taunt would be justified. It is a known fact however that it did not, so his claims are false.



It is a known fact that the Nyx attacked a Caldari Station, killed thousands of civilians, and then the Federation denied that they had ordered this attack.

All else is conjecture.


The Nyx delivered the Federal delegation who had arrived to work out a new trade agreement with the Ishukone corporation and the wider State.

Then it broke formation, set a collision course, and rammed into the station.

This killed the Ishukone CEO, tens of thousands, and the Federal delegation onboard.

The support fleet for the Nyx did not attack anyone, but were destroyed by the State Navy.

No Federal invasion followed. No trade deal was ever made. Relations soured and Tibus Heth used the event to propel himself into power with his main rival killed in the event.

And out of the many scenarios that might explain why this happened, you are, of course, picking the one where the Federation ordered the attack.

I would ask you in earnest what we could possibly gain by destroying our own Flagship, killing our own delegation consisting of some very famous and high-ranking faces, and doing this overtly to harm the State we were officially trying to gain better relations with, but we both know the answer: You are desperate to hate us and will believe anything that helps you in this regard and ignore any logic or argument that says otherwise.

I suspect trying to converse with you is a waste of time and that you are a shameful disgrace to your Empire.

Please prove me wrong.
Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-03-23 19:09:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Adel Khamez
BloodBird wrote:


I would ask you in earnest what we could possibly gain by destroying our own Flagship, killing our own delegation consisting of some very famous and high-ranking faces, and doing this overtly to harm the State we were officially trying to gain better relations with, but we both know the answer: You are desperate to hate us and will believe anything that helps you in this regard and ignore any logic or argument that says otherwise.

I suspect trying to converse with you is a waste of time and that you are to your Empire.

Please prove me wrong.


Post proof that this action was not ordered. You cannot.

You can only claim that the Federation leaders weren't stupid enough to do this. But then they must have been stupid enough to allow a madman to control a Nyx on a sensitive diplomatic mission.

So which is it? Was the Federation attacking the State? Or were they merely criminally negligent, and put control of one of their largest ships in the hands of a mad man when the State was on the verge of signing a peace treaty?


And my Empire and peers will decide if I am "a shameful disgrace", not some loudmouthed Gallente puke like you.

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#53 - 2013-03-23 19:11:42 UTC
The Malaken Incident was a result of terrorism. Your opening a can of worms best left closed, and you should kindly remember that right now Heth openly employees the terrorists responsible for the incident on Caldari Prime that sparked the first war between our peoples.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#54 - 2013-03-23 19:16:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Adel Khamez wrote:
BloodBird wrote:


I would ask you in earnest what we could possibly gain by destroying our own Flagship, killing our own delegation consisting of some very famous and high-ranking faces, and doing this overtly to harm the State we were officially trying to gain better relations with, but we both know the answer: You are desperate to hate us and will believe anything that helps you in this regard and ignore any logic or argument that says otherwise.

I suspect trying to converse with you is a waste of time and that you are to your Empire.

Please prove me wrong.


Post proof that this action was not ordered. You cannot.

You can only claim that the Federation leaders weren't stupid enough to do this. But then they must have been stupid enough to allow a madman to control a Nyx on a sensitive diplomatic mission.

So which is it? Was the Federation attacking the State? Or were they merely criminally negligent, and put control of one of their largest ships in the hands of a mad man when the State was on the verge of signing a peace treaty?


And my Empire and peers will decide if I am "a shameful disgrace", not some loudmouthed Gallente puke like you.


With respect sir, Admiral Noir was to my understanding a force for peace, and a recipient of the Aidonis. I do not think anyone could have predicted that he would do what he did. Perhaps it was ordered, perhaps not, but if he was a madman, there is no way anyone could have known it before that day.
Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-03-23 19:39:10 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:

With respect sir, Admiral Noir was to my understanding a force for peace, and a recipient of the Aidonis. I do not think anyone could have predicted that he would do what he did. Perhaps it was ordered, perhaps not, but if he was a madman, there is no way anyone could have known it before that day.


Someone crashed that Nyx into an inhabited station. A Jovian, perhaps?

Would the Gallente Federation tolerate a Caldari supercap doing the same?

Would there be no consequences for the State if this had happened, and the State disclaimed responsibility?

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!
BloodBird
The Crucible.
#56 - 2013-03-24 15:05:46 UTC
Adel Khamez wrote:
Samira Kernher wrote:

With respect sir, Admiral Noir was to my understanding a force for peace, and a recipient of the Aidonis. I do not think anyone could have predicted that he would do what he did. Perhaps it was ordered, perhaps not, but if he was a madman, there is no way anyone could have known it before that day.


Someone crashed that Nyx into an inhabited station. A Jovian, perhaps?

Would the Gallente Federation tolerate a Caldari supercap doing the same?

Would there be no consequences for the State if this had happened, and the State disclaimed responsibility?


That's what I am trying to tell you.

1) There was nothing to gain and very much to lose in ordering that kind of action from Noir. He acted on his own. Exactly why he had waited for this long or what he was thinking none of us know, we will likely never know. You are however indicating it was ordered despite all logical reason, apparently because this would be convenient to your views: That the Federated Union is "evil" or at least absurdly incompetent.

Maybe this belief helps you sleep at night, I don't know.

2) We did have consequences to this action - we lost our delegation, our flagship, the support fleet, the reputation of an admiral, the physical man himself, the reputation of our whole nation in the eyes of every single Caldari that was finally beginning to see us differently after about a century of peace, and we lost the biggest voice of reason, trade and peace in the State. Everything was going so well.

Then everything went to hell and we know the rest today. I would even claim that if this deal had gone through and we had not ended in a new war we might have been seeing official diplomatic sessions regarding Caldari Prime today. We will never know what could have been.
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