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How much tackle on a single ship? On a gang?
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Rohnann Varr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-09-07 08:48:42 UTC
(copied from old forum to test new one)

Hey there,

I wondered. If I were ever to conduct business outside of highsec, which I want to in the near future, I was pondering about what I can expect from enemies I meet there, specifically tackle strength.

I'm still alone, I don't feel comfortable joining a corporation yet and I sure as hell don't feel like paying for protection once a week (since it'll probably be not only involving monetary loss but also unaffordable in the first place). So, the only way for me to conduct business, that doesn't involve blazing guns (which is preferable in an industrial) is not to get caught.

Now, most basic preparations, like checking the star map for activities on path and destination, are already in my books, but what I am wondering is: If I were to encounter a single pirate (I probably wouldn't survive a small gang without a blockade runner and proper procedure either way) how much tackling strength can I expect?

Now, if I were to keep myself away from general celestial object warp-ins and maybe fly in in a frigate first to set custom warp points, keep a good eye on the Taq-tab (tab only showing things with guns that shoot) and distances of objects, I should be safer already, but still. As soon as my indy does get tackled i'd be toast.

So, there are two flavors of warp jammers. The warp disruptor that does 20km with ease, but eats capacitor, doesn't hinder MWDs and only grants 1 scramble strength. Then there's the warp scrambler, which only performs at 7,5km, but is low on cap drain, disables MWDs and grants double the scrambling power of a disruptor. Alright, so much I found out.

Now the things I ask myself are:

- how many and which ones of these do pirates generally fit?
- How about small pirate gangs? Dedicated tackler or one per ship?
- How would YOU deem the survival chances of a "well, it's still better than nothing"-fitted T1 indy that can/can't be tackled.
- What are viable options of escaping a tackle in a T1 indy (no cloak/MWD for me). Is targetting disruption a viable option?
- Should I just forget all this and grind missions and make money and learn skills until I can buy and fit an ACTUAL blockade runner?

Looking foward to ALL answers :3

"No really, I have virtually NO idea what I am doing here" _ -Me, at any given time i'm asked what I want to do in EVE_
foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
#2 - 2011-09-07 09:08:20 UTC
You are highly unlikely to meet a single pirate on a gate, unless he is in something tanky. In that case expect him to try to kill you before you warp off. In this case you will either be pointed by a disruptor, or not even pointed at all (for example arty cane can start shooting at you long before you might be in point range).

What worries you is the gate camp.

In that case a HIC is very likely, and that means infinitive disruption. You are stuck.

Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior.
WeirdNoise
Corporation 0981247
#3 - 2011-09-07 09:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: WeirdNoise
Single gate campers do happen.

To answer OP's most prominent question, they won't have two scramblers fitted.
So their "tackling strength" won't be more than 2.
What you need to survive them besides warp stabs is tanking (to withstand fire until you either warp out or MWD back to the gate) and low inertia (to turn fast and align to warp or align back to the gate).

Also... when you appear cloaked on the other side of the gate and notice one or several big red pie-wats in overview, don't just select your normal warp point to warp to. Make use of the 30 seconds cloaking time to find the warp point nearest to your ship's alignment. This will save you precious seconds.

I use this without warp stabs. Last night I survived an encounter with many reds this way. The other day I died to a single guy.

Also, in case you don't know, gate campers see the gate flashing when someone jumps in. They're alerted and ready for you to appear on overview.
Rohnann Varr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2011-09-07 09:18:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Rohnann Varr
foksieloy wrote:
You are highly unlikely to meet a single pirate on a gate, unless he is in something tanky. In that case expect him to try to kill you before you warp off. In this case you will either be pointed by a disruptor, or not even pointed at all (for example arty cane can start shooting at you long before you might be in point range).

What worries you is the gate camp.

In that case a HIC is very likely, and that means infinitive disruption. You are stuck.


Sounds like going low on the WCS and higher on tank, tank, afterburner to get back to the gate (hopefully) soon enough and tank.

But really, i've been observing the systems I do have an eye on. Naturally, they lead to nullsec, but they not quite close to the nearest trade hub or anything else of importance and on the star map they are usually either shown as empty or housing about 1-2 players.

Maybe I should just give it a try. Start with cheap, disposable ships and see where it gets me. Most people scream, that lowsec is greatly abandoned anyway (which I can confirm to be a fabrication). I could make a few test runs with an empty small indy all the way to my desired 0.2 system and see what happens.

WeirdNoise wrote:
Single gate campers do happen.

To answer OP's most prominent question, they won't have two scramblers fitted.
So their "tackling strengt"h won't be more than 2.
What you need to survive them besides warp stabs is tanking and low inertia.

Also... when you appear cloaked on the other side of the gate and notice a big red pie-wat in overview, don't just select your normal warp point to warp to. Make use of the 30 seconds cloaking time to find the warp point nearest to your ship's alignment. This will save you precious seconds.

I use this without warp stabs. Last night I survived an encounter with many reds this way. The other day I died to a single guy.

Also, in case you don't know, gate campers see the gate flashing when someone jumps in. They're alerted and ready for you to appear on overview.


So, it's as I would have expected. WCS to not be stuck in the first place, tank to survive until warp is initiated and MAYBE an inertia stabilizer to align more quickly.

It'll be situational, I am aware of that, but that's no excuse to not prepare properly, mh? :3

"No really, I have virtually NO idea what I am doing here" _ -Me, at any given time i'm asked what I want to do in EVE_
Chiana Moro
Hideaway Hunters
The Hideaway.
#5 - 2011-09-07 09:20:07 UTC
It depends on where you go too. There is a difference between low sec and npc null (and ofc sov null is the same as npc, but you'd be unlikely to trade in sov null).

I would stay away from T1 haulers in low sec/npc null. If you must run one fit 2 stabs and you may have a chance of getting through a 1 or 2 ship camp. Unless, as foksieloy, says you face a HIC when your are toast anyway.
For HIC (heavy interdictor): look up eg. Broadsword

I'd simply wait for a Blockade Runner and you'd fairly safe-ish in low sec. Unless you fubar, which will happen from time to time Big smile
Rohnann Varr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2011-09-07 09:26:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rohnann Varr
Chiana Moro wrote:
It depends on where you go too. There is a difference between low sec and npc null (and ofc sov null is the same as npc, but you'd be unlikely to trade in sov null).

I would stay away from T1 haulers in low sec/npc null. If you must run one fit 2 stabs and you may have a chance of getting through a 1 or 2 ship camp. Unless, as foksieloy, says you face a HIC when your are toast anyway.
For HIC (heavy interdictor): look up eg. Broadsword

I'd simply wait for a Blockade Runner and you'd fairly safe-ish in low sec. Unless you fubar, which will happen from time to time Big smile


Might as well try, while my assets are still easily replacable (no T2 equipment at all, mostly not even Tech). After all, don't people want players to get out of hisec? :3

"No really, I have virtually NO idea what I am doing here" _ -Me, at any given time i'm asked what I want to do in EVE_
Amun Khonsu
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2011-09-07 09:37:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Amun Khonsu
Just my thoughts...

If you are outside of High Sec, be prepared to fight or die.

People will camp gates solo or in fleet. Pirates typically will always be ready with advantage on their side be it a massive blob, snipers or smartbombs and often with command boosts in system.

People who are not ordinarily pirates sometimes will test you also, especially if you look at them funny. Safer to assume everyone is an enemy even if they dont flash red.

There is no escaping tackle, even if you had all of the warp core stabs in the world. It only takes one sensor boosted Heavy Interdictor and you are toast. Blockade Runners can be decloaked if the person knows what he is doing and is on the ball. In null sec it only takes a bubble.

All that being said, it doesnt make it impossible to operate. You have to know when times are slow for the people living in the area you want to operate in. An alt account with a no skills scout is extremely useful. Use every possible advantage and you can do it with very little loss.

Fight them until turmoil is no more and strike terror into their hearts. www.ross-fw.net
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2011-09-07 10:16:12 UTC
WeirdNoise wrote:
Single gate campers do happen.

Also... when you appear cloaked on the other side of the gate and notice one or several big red pie-wats in overview, don't just select your normal warp point to warp to. Make use of the 30 seconds cloaking time to find the warp point nearest to your ship's alignment. This will save you precious seconds. .


When you are still under gate-cloak you are stopped. A stopped ship has no movement vecto. This means you have no alignment.

Conclusion: It will take the same time to align everything. It does not matter if your ship is pointing to it. (This is of course only true as long as your speed is 0m/s)

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

foksieloy
Rockets ponies and rainbows
#9 - 2011-09-07 10:17:22 UTC
WeirdNoise wrote:
Make use of the 30 seconds cloaking time to find the warp point nearest to your ship's alignment. This will save you precious seconds.


I'd like to point out this is not true. When standing still your ship has no alignment. Any location you pick, your warp out time will be the same.

Disclaimer: I do not actually play this game, I just forum warrior.
Rohnann Varr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#10 - 2011-09-07 10:25:12 UTC
foksieloy wrote:
WeirdNoise wrote:
Make use of the 30 seconds cloaking time to find the warp point nearest to your ship's alignment. This will save you precious seconds.


I'd like to point out this is not true. When standing still your ship has no alignment. Any location you pick, your warp out time will be the same.


I suppose it's true only for going to warp after undocking from a station, since the ship is already moving.





Anyways. I believe I've pretty much decided to pin my plans for now and try to get the proper skills for a blockade runner... also, the revenue needed to buy one (and to replace it should it get blown up). In my newborn excitement I tend to forget that I shouldn't rush things. At this point even a million ISK is still a lot of money for me. I can't even run Lvl 2 missions yet (even though I already bought and rudimentarily fitted a cruiser which I don't have any experience in). I'll see to it that I first get a solid inflow of ISK before going on dangerous endeavours like lowsec business.

But many thanks for all the answers :3

"No really, I have virtually NO idea what I am doing here" _ -Me, at any given time i'm asked what I want to do in EVE_
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2011-09-07 12:01:41 UTC
If you've been watching the systems a bit - like taking a small, fast frigate there to make bookmarks (you are bookmarking around the system, right?) - then you probably have a pretty good idea of the ships that are setting up gate-camps there.

As such - watch for HIC's. There sits your infini-point ships but they are the ONLY infini-points in the game. outside of those, you'll get hit with disruptors (usually - 1 point worth) or scrams so 3 points is about top from the initial tackler. After the initial tackle, it could climb being as many/most gate campers will fit point in various flavors.
Louis deGuerre
The Dark Tribe
#12 - 2011-09-07 12:20:17 UTC
Hmmm...my post on this thread got eaten by the forums...
Othran
Route One
#13 - 2011-09-07 12:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
WeirdNoise wrote:
Single gate campers do happen.

To answer OP's most prominent question, they won't have two scramblers fitted.
So their "tackling strength" won't be more than 2.


I beg to differ. There are -3 strength faction warp scramblers - True Sansha & Republic Fleet scrams are -3.

They are highly prized by low-sec "pirates" who do like their faction bling ;)

You are unlikely to come across many of them but they do exist and they are actively used - Evannater (Eifer/Ingunn/etc) constellation has a few people who used them as does Hed (Amamake etc).
Idicious Lightbane
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2011-09-07 13:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Idicious Lightbane
WeirdNoise wrote:
Single gate campers do happen.

Also... when you appear cloaked on the other side of the gate and notice one or several big red pie-wats in overview, don't just select your normal warp point to warp to. Make use of the 30 seconds cloaking time to find the warp point nearest to your ship's alignment. This will save you precious seconds.

I use this without warp stabs. Last night I survived an encounter with many reds this way. The other day I died to a single guy.

Also, in case you don't know, gate campers see the gate flashing when someone jumps in. They're alerted and ready for you to appear on overview.


This is incorrect on 2 points. Gate cloak lasts 60 seconds, your session change timer is 30. Secondly you don't have to align when at 0 speed (after you jump through a gate or otherwise) At 0 velocity you are basically aligned to everywhere according to the game, and the only thing that matters is getting to 75% max velocity to enter warp.
Because of this it doesn't matter what point you try and warp to relevant to the time it takes you to warp, it however is a good idea while trying to escape to say warp to an asteroid belt at a planet with many belts at say 70km distance, so you will be harder to chase.
Therefore if you have a ship that takes over 10 seconds to align, you can reduce that to 10 by activating you MWD once, when it deactivates you will be at 75% max velocity on all ships besides capitals, and thus able to warp.

To the OP, do not try and get back to the gate with an AB, fit a MWD, and perhaps a cloak is well so you can do the Cloak + MWD trick and be able to escape all but the best/largest camps with ease (in low-sec, in null-sec it will improve you chances substantially)

Cloak + MWD trick is having a TII Cloak and a MWD fitted to your ship, once you jump through a gate and find a camp on the other side, what you do is pick a point you want to warp to (next gate, or a celestial/station, whatever) You then:

Align to your destination.
As soon as you hit align activate you Cloak
No more than 1 second after Cloak activate you MWD (if you do it fast you MWD will still activate for 1 cycle and you will cloak before MWD goes on so your sig doesn't blow up)
Once your MWD shuts down de-cloak, and warp to your destination.

If you pull this off correctly you will not ever be lockable long enough to be caught, even should escape insta lock ceptors if you do it fast enough (Say have Cloak and MWD on F1 and F2, click Align, F1, F2, F1 after MWD cycle is done, have mouse already over Warp To) Practice this in high-sec till you can do it without thinking, don't want to make mistakes dew to jitters when you jump into a camp.

The reason this works (only with a TII Cloak, and I don't mean the Covert Ops one) is that once you drop your cloak after MWD cycle is over you will be over 75% max velocity and can instantly warp.

This will be more effective than just some Stabs and a MWD, you could add some stabs in just incase an insta lock ceptor somehow manages to get you.
Sovennek
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2011-09-07 16:56:25 UTC
Obviously, your first, best bet is to avoid a camped gate altogether.

A couple of small tips I picked up along the way:

Check out the chatter in your Local Chat window. They might be talking about a cluster of pirates right where you are planning to go.

Also, some thoughtful victims of an ambush might leave cargo containers on the other side of the gate with warnings. Since these containers only last for two hours, if you see one, then the camp is probably still there.

Being sneaky and flying paranoid is a big part of the fun, don't you think? Big smile

Remember: They're only pixels; it's not real money; it's supposed to be fun!
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#16 - 2011-09-07 18:04:47 UTC
Rohnann Varr wrote:
So, it's as I would have expected. WCS to not be stuck in the first place, tank to survive until warp is initiated and MAYBE an inertia stabilizer to align more quickly.

It'll be situational, I am aware of that, but that's no excuse to not prepare properly, mh? :3

Never ever ever ever ever fit a wstab to any ship you intend to fight back with. Wstab severely reduce targeting range and targeting speed.

The only use for wstab is on ships that do not fight, like haulers or travel fits (any ship can be fit for travelling, making it mostly useless at fighting).

Keep in mind that bubbles will prevent warping even with wstab, and a HIC's focused infini-point will too.
Rohnann Varr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2011-09-08 07:49:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Rohnann Varr
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Rohnann Varr wrote:
So, it's as I would have expected. WCS to not be stuck in the first place, tank to survive until warp is initiated and MAYBE an inertia stabilizer to align more quickly.

It'll be situational, I am aware of that, but that's no excuse to not prepare properly, mh? :3

Never ever ever ever ever fit a wstab to any ship you intend to fight back with. Wstab severely reduce targeting range and targeting speed.

The only use for wstab is on ships that do not fight, like haulers or travel fits (any ship can be fit for travelling, making it mostly useless at fighting).

Keep in mind that bubbles will prevent warping even with wstab, and a HIC's focused infini-point will too.



Don't tell me I forgot to hint at in my posts that I am, in fact, talking about haulers.
Because, I pretty much am. <.<
Well, "conducting business" IS a bit ambiguous.

Well, yes. I am, therefore I was suggesting wstab for hauler.
After all I paid attention in the tutorials :3

"No really, I have virtually NO idea what I am doing here" _ -Me, at any given time i'm asked what I want to do in EVE_
Bort Malice
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#18 - 2011-09-08 12:56:41 UTC
Rohnann Varr wrote:
After all, don't people want players to get out of hisec? :3


I have seen no evidence to support this hypothesis.

I have yet to find a solid business reason to expand any operation outside of High Sec, Lowsec seems to exist to give haulers terrain to naviagte around or risk going through for a quicker buck, but given the inherent dangers in Low Sec and the non-existant markets, I cannot see where the profit lies.

As for 0.0, I am happy to be proved wrong that it is in some way anything more than a playground for 5-6 year old pilots with disposable 1 billion isk ships.
Rohnann Varr
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2011-09-08 13:06:05 UTC
Bort Malice wrote:
Rohnann Varr wrote:
After all, don't people want players to get out of hisec? :3


I have seen no evidence to support this hypothesis.

I have yet to find a solid business reason to expand any operation outside of High Sec, Lowsec seems to exist to give haulers terrain to naviagte around or risk going through for a quicker buck, but given the inherent dangers in Low Sec and the non-existant markets, I cannot see where the profit lies.

As for 0.0, I am happy to be proved wrong that it is in some way anything more than a playground for 5-6 year old pilots with disposable 1 billion isk ships.


Given, the primary reason for these claims, as I read them, might have been to freely shoot at them at gusto. Hencewhy I'm careful about actually leaving highsec.

But then again, everyone says something different. You just gotta ask enough people. All I know is, that I'm not going to get deeper into PI in highsec. Just not enough raw material output on the planets.

"No really, I have virtually NO idea what I am doing here" _ -Me, at any given time i'm asked what I want to do in EVE_
Bort Malice
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#20 - 2011-09-08 13:10:31 UTC
Rohnann Varr wrote:
Bort Malice wrote:
Rohnann Varr wrote:
After all, don't people want players to get out of hisec? :3


I have seen no evidence to support this hypothesis.

I have yet to find a solid business reason to expand any operation outside of High Sec, Lowsec seems to exist to give haulers terrain to naviagte around or risk going through for a quicker buck, but given the inherent dangers in Low Sec and the non-existant markets, I cannot see where the profit lies.

As for 0.0, I am happy to be proved wrong that it is in some way anything more than a playground for 5-6 year old pilots with disposable 1 billion isk ships.


Given, the primary reason for these claims, as I read them, might have been to freely shoot at them at gusto. Hencewhy I'm careful about actually leaving highsec.

But then again, everyone says something different. You just gotta ask enough people. All I know is, that I'm not going to get deeper into PI in highsec. Just not enough raw material output on the planets.


Thats fair. Though I have found that again the return on PI is too small unless you are operating across many many systems, and this can be done in High Sec too.

It just takes for ages lol
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