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Introducing myself and asking for help with balance!

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BadFC
Doomheim
#121 - 2013-03-21 21:35:40 UTC
chris elliot wrote:
[quote=Two step]IMHO, Battleships need a large EHP buff. The fact that cruisers can match or exceed their EHP is a very bad thing. Along with an EHP buff, they probably also need a tracking nerf. BSs should be very vulnerable to smaller ships, but for fighting other BSs and caps, they should be the front line ships the lore makes them out to be.



This, 100%. There is no reason one should be able to make a dirt cheap t1 prophecy with the same or more ehp than a battleship.


I agree.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#122 - 2013-03-21 21:35:46 UTC
monkfish2345 wrote:


couldn't disagree more.

right now, BS are in a situation when it comes to shooting dreds (which should be one of their primary targets), they get instapoped.
or they get popped by alpha t3 bc fleets.

increasing the HP separates them from the current BC lineup. and will make them more usable in fleets which have caps/supers.
and without those light drones they would be sitting ducks to pretty much anything smaller than a BC. even for a frig it is not a massive issue to take out a few drones and then out track a BS.

the MJD gives them the ability to be able to apply range, without also giving them the mobility you are complaining about as well, they are still not fast (with the exceptions on the mach and phoon)
As was said previously these should be the 'ship of the line' of sort, they should be the core of a large fleet battle. right now they are nowhere.

on a side note for t3 BCs i think what these really need is just a reduction in their alpha rather than a dps nerf as some have said.
something along the lines of reduced guns with RoF bonus. which fits in with the way CCP tends to prefer ships now as well. that way they can still have their glass cannon status, but without instapopping everything on the field when there is more than 10 of them.



But a fleet of abaddons against a fleet of Oracles and Tornadoes and see who wins. I guarantee you it won't be the cruisers. Of course a BS pops to a fleet of T3s, everything subcap pops to a fleet of anything with enough dps.

Its not a few drones, most battleships have 2-3 flights of light drones, and no frigate can solo a battleship ehp down before a battelships drones can take out the frigate (assume the frig doesn't opt to shoot drones). No, they aren't fast, and they aren't supposed to be, but they are not immobile like dreads or carriers either. This oh woe is my battleship idea is a huge misnomer as they are used in fleets to great effect. The only, and I mean only reason to use a Naga over a Rokh in fleets is if you can't fly a Rokh. They do not need an EHP buff. If you think cruisers can get too close to BS hp then nerf cruisers, don't creep the power levels so that you need a fleet of dreads to even think about fighting a fleet of battleships.

Right now bombers need 1-2 full waves before Rohks will go down en masse, you want to buff that even more so that giant coalitions are even more ridiculously overpowered in numbers?
Viribus
Wilderness
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#123 - 2013-03-21 21:39:27 UTC
I think the proper way to nerf something is to give it more glaring weaknesses, rather than hit its strengths. This way, a good pilot can still exploit the strengths of the hull, but needs to work harder to mitigate its weaknesses, since a clever opponent can take advantage of them.

This was kind of the failing of the Dram nerf, a ship that was far too flexible. Instead of giving it a weakness to exploit (say, by removing its tracking bonus, meaning it isn't able to speedtank other frigs), it was just made a little bit worse at everything. It became a jack-of-all-trades and master of none, and we all know how much PVPers love unspecialized and unfocused hulls (this is sarcasm)

If the talos needs to be nerfed, it should be its capacitor, tank, or both, so it stays as a powerful hit and run hull, but with less staying power in drawn-out fights.

watch me be a scurb and get owned
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#124 - 2013-03-21 21:45:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
You guys already published the answer for attack BCs in my opinion. Tweak their mobility moving them further into the speed/agility bracket of BCs, leaving the cruiser tank and BS damage. See how that shakes out and readjust as necessary.

CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
also as much as previous blogs have said how you guys are happy with amarr BS for the most part, an option other than just laser based DPS might be nice.


I agree here as well. Already been thinking about other options for one of the amarr bs - as a follow up question related to this: Which amarr bs seems most ripe for an overhaul in your opinion?


I really hope you don't go the route of an Amarr BS 'overhaul', when it is already such a great model for interesting balance. 3 platforms with 1 main weapon system that all function differently is an endstate I would love to see more of in the other racial lines rather than eliminate the one racial line where that exists. Expand on that theme, please don't reroll one of them into a drone boat or something less palatable.

http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/63522/1/2013shipbalancing.jpg
Take the Armageddon all the way into your proposed model of 'attack BS' to behave more along the lines of the Tempest today. Gank heavy, lots of utility and mobility (for a bs), light on tank. Balance against Mega and Typhoon (no idea why you picked those versus the tempest and hyperion which would make more sense to me but whatever).

Keep the Apoc as the range bonused ship able to hit those insane ranges. Sure the meta may have passed this style right now, but it is a great (if currently too small) niche in the game, and the Apoc is the perfect hull for it.

The Abbadon should continue to do what it does best. Be a laser spewing brick of doom.

Changing any of these ships with an overhaul away from lasers would be a huge loss in my opinion.

---

The game needs more T2 BS and it would be amazing to have a lineup of Mauraders designed for PvP, in my opinion, there is the space in game for Amarr drone or Khanid BS. T2 resists, EWAR bonuses, another hull for all that Maurader SP etc etc:

Khanid Abaddon
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to torpedo damage and 5% bonus to capacitor amount per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to armour resists and 10% bonus to Energy Vampire and Energy Neutralizer drain amount per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to torpedo damage

CreoDron Hyperion
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level and 5% bonus to drone MWD speed, drone optimal and drone tracking per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to armour HP and 10% bonus to range of warp disruption devices including focus warp disruption scripted, warp disruption field generators per level
Role Bonus: Able to fit Warp Disruption Field Generators

Boundless Creation Maelstrom
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large missile rate of fire and 20% bonus to the range of stasis webifiers per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level and 5% bonus to the effectiveness of target painters per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large missile weapon damage

Ishukone Rokh
Caldari Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking per level and 10% bonus to the optimal range of large hybrid turrets per level
Marauder Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to shield resists per level and 5% bonus to damage of large hybrid turrets per level
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid turret damage
(because f*** Caldari EWAR P )

Anyways, that devolved into idle theorycrafting, but the TL;DR is that I believe 'overhauls' especially to the Amarr lineup would best be accomplished in the T2 bracket of BS (which I would love to see expanded), and it would be a shame to revamp one of the 3 interesting laser boats that exist today.
Venetrian'Kel
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2013-03-21 21:46:29 UTC
I think the major flaw with Tier3 battlecruisers is when they are used in large scale 40-10 ship fleets. Solo they are not at all overpowered, although Talos is quite powerful as you have demonstrated yourself.

I think in general tier3´s are way too fast and agile, its nigh impossible to catch a fleet of them when they just run away from your bubbles or run outside your long point range. All this makes engagements against these ships very unfulfilling, to the point no one really bothers to engage them anymore.

I like the basic idea of fitting BIG guns on paper tanked ships, but I think its the speed and agility that makes them very unbalanced and basically makes other tier 1-2 battlecruiser fleets pointless, tier3 always does it better with its superior range, damage and speed.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#126 - 2013-03-21 21:57:06 UTC
One of the main reasons I limited my earlier post to the Megathron, Armageddon, and Typhoon according to the old dev blog, they were already named the "attack" battleships.

Are they pigeon-holed into this role already, or are we discussing changing any of the Racial BS's to fulfill this role?

P.S. Also, I really hope you fill out this chart, and give us a Caldari Attack BS and Racial Disruption Battleships.
Grarr Dexx
Blue Canary
Watch This
#127 - 2013-03-21 21:57:08 UTC
Here's an idea for battleships: stop moroses from doing ten times the dps a vindicator can do against subcaps. Dreads were pos / cap bashers, not subcap bashers.
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-03-21 21:57:17 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
monkfish2345 wrote:


couldn't disagree more.

right now, BS are in a situation when it comes to shooting dreds (which should be one of their primary targets), they get instapoped.
or they get popped by alpha t3 bc fleets.

increasing the HP separates them from the current BC lineup. and will make them more usable in fleets which have caps/supers.
and without those light drones they would be sitting ducks to pretty much anything smaller than a BC. even for a frig it is not a massive issue to take out a few drones and then out track a BS.

the MJD gives them the ability to be able to apply range, without also giving them the mobility you are complaining about as well, they are still not fast (with the exceptions on the mach and phoon)
As was said previously these should be the 'ship of the line' of sort, they should be the core of a large fleet battle. right now they are nowhere.

on a side note for t3 BCs i think what these really need is just a reduction in their alpha rather than a dps nerf as some have said.
something along the lines of reduced guns with RoF bonus. which fits in with the way CCP tends to prefer ships now as well. that way they can still have their glass cannon status, but without instapopping everything on the field when there is more than 10 of them.



But a fleet of abaddons against a fleet of Oracles and Tornadoes and see who wins. I guarantee you it won't be the cruisers. Of course a BS pops to a fleet of T3s, everything subcap pops to a fleet of anything with enough dps.

Its not a few drones, most battleships have 2-3 flights of light drones, and no frigate can solo a battleship ehp down before a battelships drones can take out the frigate (assume the frig doesn't opt to shoot drones). No, they aren't fast, and they aren't supposed to be, but they are not immobile like dreads or carriers either. This oh woe is my battleship idea is a huge misnomer as they are used in fleets to great effect. The only, and I mean only reason to use a Naga over a Rokh in fleets is if you can't fly a Rokh. They do not need an EHP buff. If you think cruisers can get too close to BS hp then nerf cruisers, don't creep the power levels so that you need a fleet of dreads to even think about fighting a fleet of battleships.

Right now bombers need 1-2 full waves before Rohks will go down en masse, you want to buff that even more so that giant coalitions are even more ridiculously overpowered in numbers?


right where to start...

i didn;t say t3 BCs will win vs BS, i said they can quite easily instapop a BS (particularly an issue with nados) hence why i also said that i would like to reduce the alpha (not the dps) of t3 BCs.

a single frigate should never be able to solo a BS. but that does not mean that several cannot. if you take away all of a BS's defences vs small ships, then nobody will fly them at all, why spend 200mil on a bs that can be taken down by a merlin? makes no sense.

i agree they arent fast and nor do i want them to be.

nagas and tornados are far mroe manoeuvrable, and it allows them to kite and jump around the battlespace use properly they can be very effective in situations where a rokh is too immobile to be. in a larger fleet i would expect the rokh to be the preferred choice.

what do you consider a full wave of bombs? should bs be dying to 3 or 4 bombs?

also there is a big differance between EHP and actual tank. for things like fleets of smaller ships, it would take longer to kill them yes, but they are not suddenly made invincible becasue they last longer. nobody is suggesting tanking bonus' are they?
Spartan dax
0utbreak
#129 - 2013-03-21 22:06:48 UTC
Speed and agility wise the tier 3's are mostly fine. Some nerfs to the speed of the talos and tornado down to Naga territory and you're set.

The thing with these Tier 3's though if you're running a skirmish fleet, there's never a reason to bring a BS as the damage application is just as good or even better with a Tier 3 BC. So we nerf the tracking a bit with a -25% role bonus to tracking. Nothing overly dramatic but a good enough reason to consider bringing a BS or two to the party instead.
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-03-21 22:06:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Recoil IV
i cry for what EVE has become.
BigCynoBoom
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2013-03-21 22:10:55 UTC
The drone upgrades were a good change to drone BS, But without implants effecting drones there will always be a big gap in performance of drone battleships vs Gunnery/missile. Faction variants for all the drone modules would help also. Drone ships have a split weapon bonus problem, but the drone ships compete very well until you get to into selecting the highest damage battleship.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#132 - 2013-03-21 22:11:03 UTC
BadFC wrote:
chris elliot wrote:
[quote=Two step]IMHO, Battleships need a large EHP buff. The fact that cruisers can match or exceed their EHP is a very bad thing. Along with an EHP buff, they probably also need a tracking nerf. BSs should be very vulnerable to smaller ships, but for fighting other BSs and caps, they should be the front line ships the lore makes them out to be.



This, 100%. There is no reason one should be able to make a dirt cheap t1 prophecy with the same or more ehp than a battleship.


I agree.


How about the fact that battleships do like 5x the damage of that prophecy, while having (generally) more mids, as well as having larger cap pools, better sensor strength, the ability to fit mjds and heavy neuts
Blasharga
Names are actually really hard
#133 - 2013-03-21 22:13:41 UTC
For me, currently it seem the large guns on the t3 ships make them very powerful, because of the low align, signature and scan res. It feel like this is very much the case with the Tornado, since it basically can take a free shot 100k on top of a gate, align and warp out before anything reach it.

In a fleet composition it suits the role of Alpha maelstrom, but lighter and much more fragile. It opens a hole new way of combat, and opens up for stealth bombers to eliminate entire t3 fleets. I personally like the fleet profile of the Tornado.

I'm not screaming for a nerf, as EVE as adapted somewhat to the constant threat of a lone alpha Tornado utilizing session change mechanics to their advantage. But if it would be more beneficial to fit 800mm or make it easier to catch these lone alpha-warriors.

Also, please, please, please... Leave the Talos the way it is Roll it is perfectly balanced and should just be overlooked Roll
Bob Shaftoes
TURN LEFT
#134 - 2013-03-21 22:13:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Bob Shaftoes
I think the t3 bcs need adjusted so that you cannot fit a full kiting fit + the top level of guns for their class.

Talos would downgun to ions, oracles would downgun to dual heavies, tornados down to 650s etc. This would solve a lot of their problems in terms of range projection and dps

I also think they need around 200 m/s taken off their max skilled mwd speed. They are simply too fast atm.

In exchange, I think they should be a TINY bit tankier.

Edit:

On battleships, any more ehp would be terrible. I do advocate "normalizing" the hp on all of the battleships to their racial tier 2 level though

Shooting bricks is not fun and just encourages people to blob and bring more logistics to gangs.

Other than that, battleships are fine with a few exceptions:

The hyperion needs more fitting. Ideally it either needs to be able to fit a full rack of neutrons with a dual rep or an extra low so it can fit a mag stab + a rep armor tank.

The pest needs to be more focused as a ship. Right now it can be gank fit with a weak shield tank or armor fit with no dps.

The phoon is broken because of split guns. But I know you are already committed to fixing that.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2013-03-21 22:46:37 UTC
Tier 3 battlecruisers
Arguably a success, perhaps a little too good, a little too fast but they sit slightly under the speed of the rebalanced cruisers so no need to knock them back too much, also a touch less EHP but keep the agility they need to be quick off the mark.

E-WAR/UTILITY Battleships.

New ships are always nice.

One of the things I liked about the T1 cruiser E-war ships was that a decision was made to make them a little different too each other with some more combat orientated.

Also larger clones of the smaller sized ships are not needed, they would need to be a little different.

Expanding the bonus out to include counter E-war could be interesting i.e. bonus to ECM strength and projected ECCM strength or other useful fleet support modules relevant to that races combat doctrines i.e. target painters and tracking links.

COMBAT/ATTACK Battleships
The principle of these ships sounds fine but there is still the Gallente fleet platform problem.

The previous Devblog outlined the Megathron as attack battleship and I urge this to be swapped to the Hyperion. With its tracking bonus (good for rails), utlity high and extra low (better for buffer tanking) the Megathron would make the better Fleet/combat Battleship. All it really needs is fittings and Tier 3 battleship level EHP (in fact all battleship EHP should be at this level)

With armour tanking 1.5 removing the speed penalties for active rigs the Hype can become a really nice fast active tanked Attack Battleship. The only change that needs to happen to the Rep bonus is to perhaps make it 10%.

More Drones - barely any of the battleships can effectively use their bandwidth without giving up there only really defence against small ships, some increased drone bay across all ships and not just the specialised Drone platforms would be good.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2013-03-21 23:12:54 UTC
Megathron
It is a good attack BS in my opinion, with its ability to use both Rail guns and Blasters effectivly it doesn't need anything there, the only problem is it needs a bit more CPU.

Hyperion
Will be a great combat BS as soon a armor tanking is fixed.

Dominix
This is a good ship all around, but lacks direction. A popular way to fit it is as an utility ship putting Neuts or RR instead of guns, this could be a great way to go with it.
Replace the Damage bonus with a RR bonus, Role bonus for range to RR and remove 2 turret hardpoints
The drone bonus would need to be tweaked to include repair drones and maybe add 125m3 to the drone bay for that extra flight of heavy maintance bots.

Scorpion
I have always enjoyed flying this ship and it performs well, what it lacks in HP it makes up for with strong ECM, so if the ECM strength bonus is lowered it will need a HP buff.

Raven
Has a lot of potential but the slot layout is not very forgiving. Maybe -1 low +1 mid

Typhoon
Looking forward to this being a missile ship, and a bonus to TP would benefit it well.

I do not want to comment on the other ships as I do not have enough experience with them to suggest changes.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
monkfish2345
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#137 - 2013-03-21 23:18:32 UTC
genuinely think it's a shame the phoon is going to be 'fixed'. split damage isn't broken, it just means it needs alot of SP to use effectivly.

what would be nice if the navy version are pulled into line after this rebalance but keep there existing roles.
also that way it would mean that you can cover off both the people that do want additional roles and those that like the ships in the roles they have now.
Marxius Imate
A1A Spaceship Wash
#138 - 2013-03-21 23:25:50 UTC
A Khanid type battleship hull would help bridge the awkward armor missile users out there. 9 million skills in missiles, and 5 million in armor tanking and nowhere to go...
Tonto Auri
Vhero' Multipurpose Corp
#139 - 2013-03-21 23:44:15 UTC
Marxius Imate wrote:
A Khanid type battleship hull would help bridge the awkward armor missile users out there. 9 million skills in missiles, and 5 million in armor tanking and nowhere to go...

Rattlesnake...

Two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity. -- Harlan Ellison
Recoil IV
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-03-22 00:00:35 UTC
Tonto Auri wrote:
Marxius Imate wrote:
A Khanid type battleship hull would help bridge the awkward armor missile users out there. 9 million skills in missiles, and 5 million in armor tanking and nowhere to go...

Rattlesnake...


noob