Player Features and Ideas Discussion

i came up with this nifty idea where ecm no longer breaks the lock of a ship but actually helps in determining the quality of a hit!

usually the chance to hit number is rated against x which is a random number generated between 0.001 to 1.0 which determind if a. the shot hits and b. how much damage the shot will do.

so the better your ships sensor strength the less damage is done to you and i fyou have enough ecm on you your sensor strenth goes down to 0 where shots can start doing wreking damage more often and less slightly hit..

it would take alot of work but i feel it would make ecm a balanced and not op game mechanic

Just something I need to put out there for those asking for the Armageddon to become a neut boat instead of a TD one. There is 1 reason and 1 reason alone why this cannot happen. Energy neutralizing and Nosferatu(ing) is the SECONDARY ewar for the Amarr, and is therefore only seen on T2 Amarr hulls and Blood Raider faction ships. Asking for the 'Geddon to receive neut bonuses is akin to asking for the Dominix to receive a warp disruptor/scrambler range bonus, or the Typhoon to receive a web bonus. It simply does not make sense with the current ship line and bonuses. Now I still stand by my original post (see page 1), but I would also support 4 new hulls to take the role of EWAR battleships, rather than converting the Tier 1 hulls into EWAR hulls.

Now, for those asking for a T2 Khanid Amarr BS, I love the idea, but believe that it would need to be the Abaddon, as the other two hulls already posses a T2 variant. Going along the lines of including another T2 Battleship, I would love to see a Roden Shipyards Hyperion (the Duvolle brown colour scheme doesn't agree with me), an Ishokune Rokh (but fix the d@mn Ishokune colour scheme first), and a Core Complexion Maelstrom. Perhaps they could fill the role of an Assault Battleship? Kind of overlaps Marauders in some aspects but it could work. Wait, wtf am I talking about this thread is concerning T1 Battleships and Attack Battlecruisers

Step by step, the meta changes for each BS role needs to be reexamined after a nerf to Tier 3's.

BS's need to have much more EHP and DPS to balance out the lack of maneuverability, speed, sig, and mass to justify being used. The EHP (not DPS) needs to be close to the level of faction-fitted T3 cruisers honestly.
The mere fact that a maller or prophecy or drake can easily have more tank and lower sig while still retaining good DPS over a BS is a bit stupid. T1 BS only provides ~30% more DPS, a huge increase in sig, and very little in EHP, and a negative in speed and maneuverability.

Tier 3 BC:
Keep in mind that the tier 3 BC's have a different role in low-sec versus null.

The Talos is for brawling, and within its role it is OP, its tank is balanced whether shield or armor, and the DPS is overall crazy good. A slight nerf to tracking is in order. Kiting Talos' with 2x TEs combined with Null create something that is unmatched in both DPS and range while up close it still can easily apply over 1k DPS.


The Oracle can have a huge ~65k EHP tank with boosts and armor, decent resists, good DPS, and great range dictation. It needs a small nerf in either sig, armor, or speed to bring it down to manageable levels as a fleet doctrine.
Oracles survive bombing runs a bit too easily compared to Naga's and Tornado's.This is a big no-no as stealth bombers are the best counter to Tier 3 fleets in 0.0.

The Tornado is well balanced as it currently is ...its usage has gone to the wayside as of late due to some of the newer fleet doctrines, namely the Naga --> Rokh training plan.
The tank is where a Tier 3 should be at, and the DPS is also more balanced being in the ~650 range for artillery and ~950 for 800mm's.
Probably the only well-balanced Tier 3 currently.

For a Nado to be really useful, the tank needs to be sacrificed for tracking computers and DPS somewhat sacrificed for a TE. This is what the Tier 3's were originally all about: being glass cannons.

Naga is one of the most commonly used Tier 3 doctrines thanks to it's decent tank, tracking, and alpha. When it comes to slots the ship is well balanced for a shield tank. The alpha is mainly where the ship is most useful with 425mm's. DPS nerf is unneeded here, but a tracking nerf would be most welcome to bring the ship down to more manageable levels to where a mag stab would need to be sacrificed for a TE or tank for tracking computers. It is otherwise well balanced.


Given that each Tier 3 can easily outshine most BS's in terms of DPS...there needs to be some changes, either in applied DPS or in overall effective DPS.

So some theorycrafting eh? Let's dig in.

Combat battleships: Needs to do DPS on par with Tier 3 BC's and greatly exceed current EHP standards. We're talking 175k-200k EHP with effective T2 DPS and rigs. So DPS anywhere from 800-1400 would be optimal.
The reason Napocs and Rokh's are so effective are because the ships have the buffer tank needed to survive initial alpha, and the resists needed for logi reps to catch. And this is combined with great range projection and effective DPS.
Many other battleships have an issue with this because of range considerations such as the Megathron or lack of speed/maneuverability such as the Megathron. Or the issue with ships such as the Dominix where range projection and tank become an issue (armor sentry domi anyone? Fatboys aren't exactly popular). And drones need to be fixed, or the battleships which use drones need a sentry bonus to DPS/range, not just heavy/medium/lights

Attack battleships: These guys do the actual DPS while retaining a decent tank (+125k EHP T2 fit while sacrificing DPS)...it might be a bit mind blowing, but DPS around 1500-2200 would prove for these ships to actually be useful. These ships would be the ones like the Megathron which can throw down a ton of DPS while taking the pain. The downside should be that speed and maneuverability needs to be countered by a weaker tank and a much higher sig then combat battleships. Or tracking nerfs...which is where the comparison to a megathron quickly falls apart.
These are the battleships that get blapped by dread's easily and die quickly, whereas the combat BS's can survive a bit better due to lower sigs (350-500 versus attack's which have +500).
BONUS TO MICROJUMPDRIVES ANYONE?

Dedicated EWAR battleships? Hell yea. Something which can survive in fleet combat (+125k EHP tank would be optimal).
No bonuses to tank however. That'd be a bit stupid unless these are made into T2 BS's. No weapons bonuses either unless EWAR related. So what about heavy EWAR drones? Why not give these BS's bonuses to those also?
Hell yea, you mean actually make the drones useful?
Definitely. And give the BS's a decent size drone bay and bandwidth.

Amarr: As noted before let's get these guys a dedicated neuting battleship with a drone bonus. Maybe not a DPS bonus, but something akin to the Dragoon eh? It should be less powerful then a Bhaalgorn however, so why not nerf the cargohold for cap charges?

Caldari: Already has a dedicated EWAR battleship...make sure it is fully dedicated however.

Minimatar: Target painters are always welcome in fleets...so something with a bonus to target painting and webbing?
Whoa, something with a bonus to webbing? Yup...because the Huggin dies too easily in large fleets. So why not Zoidberg?

Gallente: Remote sensor dampening? Yup. Bonus to propulsion disruptor range? Yup. Messing up slowcats? Everyday.


Shield tank or armor tank for the last two? Why not have a slot layout where either is a possibility? Both the Gallente and Minimatar have the history and background for this to occur, so why not?
EWAR is mainly midslots, so why not allow for an armor tank for fleets which thus get a boon to EWAR ability to make up fo

Tier3 BC are OP. They make ALOT of things obsolete.


They go too fast, shoot too far, and do too much damage.


Of course some CSM clown is going to say they are okay, seeing as all the nullsec alliances have changed their fleet doctrines to exclusively Tier3 BCs with recon support.

Going into some more details, lets start with the Ewar battleships, which probably deserves a whole post to itself. Below are the changes that I would make to the Ewar battleship lineup. Note that due to the changes being made here, every ship would need its PG and CPU looked at.

Scorpion:
+1 lowslot
-1 highslot
+1 turret and missile hardpoint
+HP
This would give this ship a 5/8/5 slot layout, and the goal of this fit would be to allow the scorp to run a MWD and DCU, then either a 4 slot shield tank with 3 ECM and ECM bonus mods in the lows, or a 4 slot armor tank and 6-7 ECM mods in the mids. The goal would be to allow it to hit between 200k and 250k EHP if it also devotes its 3 rigs to either extenders or trimarks, and choose between stronger ECM or more targets being ECM’d, making it a solid ship to support medium gangs or major fleets.

Dominix:
-1 highslot
+2 midslot
+hp
-hybrid turret damage bonus
+point/scram bonus (similar to the proteus in range, less than the recons)
This change would give the domi a 5/7/7 slot layout, allowing it to become essentially superheavy tackle. It could choose to either shield tank and focus on damage mods in its lows, with only a single longrange point, or it could armor tank with less damage, but more points/scrams to spread around. The EHP goal of this fit would be to get it into the 150k-200k EHP. Because it retains it turret slots though, it would not lose its viability as a “jack of all trades” battleship, fitting for either turrets, neuts, RR, or anything else that someone can dream up, though it would now lean more heavily towards drone dps as opposed to gun dps.

Typhoon:
-1 highslot
-5 turret slots
+2 mids
+hp
Change bonus’s to:
7.5% bonus to torp/cruise ROF/lvl
7.5% bonus to target painter effectiveness/lvl
These changes would give the phoon a 7/6/7 slot layout, with its 5 missile launchers being an effective 8 with its damage bonus. It could choose to either run a shield tank with fewer painters and more dps, or an armor tank with less dps but more painters to help apply that, while maintaining 2 utility highs for neuts/smartbombs/whatever else. The EHP goal would be aimed for between 150k and 200k EHP.

Armageddon:
I know people are probably going to want to kill me for changing this, but the geddon and the abaddon overlap on roles too much, and one or the other needs to get changed. Therefore:
-1highslot
-2 turret slots
+1 midslot
+100m3 drone bay
+hp
change RoF bonus from 5% to 7.5%
Change cap use bonus to 10% to neut/nos amount per level
These changes would make the geddon into a great stepping stone for the bhaalghorn. It would have less neut power than the bhaal, and wouldn’t have the web bonus, but with battleship lvl 5 it would have 8 effective turrets (same as the bhaal) and more drone bay for more damage from there. The goal should be 200k EHP with 5 lows + 3 trimarks, more if you devote more lows to it and get less gun damage. This wouldn’t end up replacing the bhaalghorn, but it would certainly give a lower cost option to running one.

And lastly, the attack and combat battleships. Starting with combat:

Raven:
Change the ROF bonus to 5% shield resist bonus/lvl
+2 missile launchers
+1 mid
-1 low
+CPU/PG
+hp
This change would not change the raven’s DPS, though it would give it more alpha as opposed to RoF. The CPU/PG should be changed to allow a general fit of 8 torps, 1 MWD, 3 active hardeners, 3 shield extenders, 1 DCU, and 3 BCU to fit, and give approximately 300k EHP, and the raven would end up with a 8/7/4 slot layout. Then the player can choose to run less tank to allow tackle, or swap things around to run an active tank, or whatever floats their boat. This would give it a range advantage and a HP advantage over the phoon, while the phoon would have the TP bonus, 2 utility slots and more agility/speed.

Hyperion:
+agility
+hp
damage bonus changed to 7.5% per lvl
The current hyperion is kind of akward, and not used all that much, having problems getting into range, and then surviving once it has done so. These changes would give the active tanking hyperion a bonus when it is using its electrons, and the extra HP would allow it to better survive. The goal for the new hyperion should be 200k EHP with a DCU+2 EANM+2 1600mm 2’s and 3 trimarks.

Maelstrom:
+hp
The Mael is currently in a strong position, and would only really need addition HP to allow it to compete with the modified battleships. The goal would be for the standard CFC alpha fit to be between 200k and 250k EHP.

Abaddon:
+hp
The abaddon is currently in the best position in my opinon, and the only changes needed would be adding enough HP so that way a DCU + 3 1600’s + 2 EANM’s + 3 trimarks would hit 300k EHP without the use of slaves.

And then attack:
Rohk
+ agility
+hp
The rohk is in a fairly decent spot right now, and it would just need some agility to fit in with the other attack battleships. HP should be between 200k and 250k with a DCU + 5 slot shield tank + 3 extender rigs.

Megathron
+hp
+agility
+1 turret
+pg/cpu
With these changes, the megathron would have a dps and tracking advantage over the rohk, while the rohk would have a range and tank advantage over the megathron. Additionally, the added agility should make the mega more agile than the hyperion, making this the gallente’s most agile battleship. The additional HP should be enough to put the mega between 150k and 200k EHP.

Tempest
-1 highslot
+1 midslot
+pg
+locking range
+hp
The temest is already quite agile, however it can’t really fit artillery very well. Giving it the ability to use artillery and some extra locking range would make the tempest a rather viable attack battleship, and these changes would give it a 7/6/6 slot layout, allowing it to choose between shield and armor tanking.

Apocalypse
+hp
+agility
+CPU/pg
The apoc is currently in a fairly nice position, except for tis trouble fitting weapons. It should be able to at least fit megabeam 2’s and a 1600 without needing a PG mod, and it is desperately low on CPU. I think it should still need 1 RCU to fit a full rack of tachs… but it certaintly shouldn’t take more than 1

Also, STAHP trying to buff BS EHP, there is enough HP creep as it is with logi frigs and logi cruisers it is getting harder and harder to kill anything out a blob these days. Pushing battleship HP up is only going to decrease the risk in flying them, it does nothing to change balance. They are not weak vs small ships because every ship larger than a frigate gets a full flight of light drones these days. Much to the chagrin of gallente pilots.

With the MJD and the armor buffs they aren't even that slow or sluggish anymore either, so buffing their EHP is absurd given how good they are.

There is certainly a power creep (though it is slowing down past the Cruiser changes) and it is leaving frigs in a worse place than they've been in a long time. A better alternative to buffing BS EHP might be nerfing some Cruiser and BC EHP--at least those ships that can currently reach BS level EHP with comparable resits and DPS. This makes the problem of "easy alpha" worse, though, so it may be necessary to ALSO then lower the alpha in some commonly used fleets, such as T3 BC fleets.

couldn't disagree more.

right now, BS are in a situation when it comes to shooting dreds (which should be one of their primary targets), they get instapoped.
or they get popped by alpha t3 bc fleets.

increasing the HP separates them from the current BC lineup. and will make them more usable in fleets which have caps/supers.
and without those light drones they would be sitting ducks to pretty much anything smaller than a BC. even for a frig it is not a massive issue to take out a few drones and then out track a BS.

the MJD gives them the ability to be able to apply range, without also giving them the mobility you are complaining about as well, they are still not fast (with the exceptions on the mach and phoon)
As was said previously these should be the 'ship of the line' of sort, they should be the core of a large fleet battle. right now they are nowhere.

on a side note for t3 BCs i think what these really need is just a reduction in their alpha rather than a dps nerf as some have said.
something along the lines of reduced guns with RoF bonus. which fits in with the way CCP tends to prefer ships now as well. that way they can still have their glass cannon status, but without instapopping everything on the field when there is more than 10 of them.

This, 100%. There is no reason one should be able to make a dirt cheap t1 prophecy with the same or more ehp than a battleship.

I would disagree highly on giving all 4 races an ewar ship that some other people mentioned. Ecm is a terribly difficult thing to balance and is in most cases still pretty broken. Stacking these abilities onto really really beefy platforms will invariably return the meta to the old alpha or gtfo type of fighting, because one can not do much else against a super beefy tank that is spitting out ecm everywhere. The exception to this would be the scorpion which, while ecm is still pretty broken, the slot layout prevents the mounting of silly tanks like you can achieve on say, a geddon or dominix.


With respect to the tier 3 battlecruisers, the talos could stand to loose its drone bay, and the oracle gain a 4th mid. Aside from that maybe a tiny (emphasis on tiny) mass increase across the board for all of them. The current meta state has the talos on top mostly because the only other ship that can come close is the tornado in terms of a midrange nano ship. The tier 1 and 2 ships have their niche and with the exception of the drake(somewhat) and the hurricane not able to operate at the speeds or projection ranges as the tier 3's. This is ok though since they gain tank in exchange.

With respect to the Talos which people seem to be crying for a nerf for. The Naga can't compete in the tracking department but works well as a long range sniper and can fit a really nice tank so it has its niche, no real complaints there. The oracle could be amazing competition if a tiny bit OP for the class due to scorch giving it an awesome optimal, but its lack of a 4th mid really hampers that ability because the meta is to just stack extenders in there and stay at range. This leaves only the talos and the tornado to operate in realistic tackle ranges. The tornado does slightly less outright damage but projection with autos is a bit better and its agility and speed are still good. It can also fit a better tank than a talos due to its extra cpu and mid slot.


The talos may be just a tad on the agile side overall though but all the tier 3's are, which a slight mass increase would fix.

You can't slow them down too much though or they will be too easy to catch and reduce their use overall in the meta as people default back to the drakes, arty canes and the newly buffed t1 cruisers, some of which are already plenty fast to run down a tier 3.