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Should Ganking be profitable?

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ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#261 - 2013-03-21 19:07:28 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Dorrim Barstorlode
I've removed some off topic posts. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you.

Thread reopened.

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode

Senior Lead

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department
Ginger Barbarella
#262 - 2013-03-21 20:42:12 UTC
If the ganker or gankers can find a way to make it profitable without CCP sanctioning a payment for doing so, by all means, rock on.

CCP rewarding ganking (beyond what it already does)?? Hardly... If they do that I should get rewarded for calling out idiot posts here in GD...

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#263 - 2013-03-21 21:08:47 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
The seriously needed floor sweeping, dusting and window cleaning is done. Thread unlocked

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Whitehound
#264 - 2013-03-22 00:07:57 UTC
Before the 2nd clean up did someone raise an interesting question, which is now gone. I'll try to pick it up anyway. It was about moving expensive items...

As long as it is cheaper to acquire common goods on the market than through ganking is there little wrong with it.

The problem is that when items begin to cost billions of ISKs does one need to begin to question the prices, too. Some items become extremely expensive simply because they are rare and might not always be available. At that point will the prices of items then turn into fiction and any statements with such prices in mind will turn into fiction, too.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#265 - 2013-03-22 00:28:21 UTC
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.

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Takseen
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2013-03-22 00:32:28 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.


Hmm. Perhaps it shouldn't be possible to safely move about billions of bulky and valuable goods?

What would be the economic implications of allowing vs not allowing this, do you think?
Tesal
#267 - 2013-03-22 00:41:51 UTC
I don't get the controversy over this. Suicide ganking is a part of life in EvE. If you prepare for it and don't do stupid stuff you won't get ganked. Of course there are people who are oblivious to danger. You can also see the risk to the gankers in the stuff not dropping from the ship they killed. If they were ganking freighters for 2b isk or less, that might be a problem, but that doesn't happen often.

I have only had an attempted suicide gank on me once. I was a newb hauling salvage in a Thorax. The salvage was junk, worth only a few million but I had a big pile of it. It was a big investment for me at the time. I had tanked my ship as much as I could because I knew I might be a target, and the industrials I was flying had a terrible tank. Some guy scanned me so I flew to a station and unloaded my cargo, thinking I would come back later when they were gone. He shot my empty ship on the way out of the system and got me into armor iirc. My tank held. Then he got concorded.

That was a lesson for me, and I made it a policy not to carry around too much stuff on autopilot. When I had a valuable cargo I didn't fly on autopilot and I picked a ship with the right tank for the job. I also started using courier jobs instead of hauling the stuff myself. Not only was I not risking my ship, but I turned a profit when they died, and it was much easier.

Suicide ganking is not a problem. The problem is that people are too stupid and load up their ship, or they are too greedy and don't break up their cargo into different stacks and put a courier contracts on them. Suicide ganking is extremely easy to avoid if you have even a basic grasp of game mechanics. Miners are more at risk, but even there, if they are prepared and use their head they will usually survive. I used to guard mining ops (I hated mining but still wanted to help). That was fun. I never lost a mining ship on my watch.

I see the OP has a new name. Hahaha. Now he will probably get biomassed. How fitting.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#268 - 2013-03-22 00:42:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.


I believe that was the point of the change.

You probably shouldn't be able to move 10b worth of T2 materials in one run in the near-perfect safety of a pre-nerf Orca.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#269 - 2013-03-22 01:16:45 UTC
Theron Vetrus wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Only thing I would like to see is the proifit removed just as DEV Soundwave suggested.


Time and time again in this thread you have been told that you took that quote out of context, most recently just a few posts above this one. Yet you goad other people about not reading your relentless whining.

While I'm sure the easymode pvp is an issue for some, that's not the issue at hand here. Most players who gank miners aren't doing it for profit, and even if they are, the margin is so slim, it's not really worth the hassle to do it for money. The issue is that miners continue to want to PvE by themselves, usually while semi-AFK or totally AFK, not fit tanks on their ships, and then cry because they feel they're being picked on in a PvP game.

Why is this so difficult for you to understand?


If they don’t gank for profit then removing that little or no profit shouldn’t be an issue. Also the quote isn’t taken of context. It was referring to miners. Did they make the change to where there is little or no profit to gank some mining hulls?? Well yes …yes they did.

Look I cant dumb it down for you any further then I already have. I think ganking in hi-sec should be possible and should be done as much as anyone wants. I dont think the ganker or gankers should profit from it.

This is very simply said and very easy to understand. Even you should be able to comprehend.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#270 - 2013-03-22 01:34:42 UTC  |  Edited by: E-2C Hawkeye
Tippia wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
I never said nothing should ever drop .
So how will you ensure that it's not possible to profit from ganking a Tengu? Your entire thesis hinges on stuff not dropping.


OMG Tippia…. do you want me to implement the idea and program the code also and go to Iceland and download it??

Millions of ways to make this happen. Could make it if you get killed in hi-sec only some of your mods are loot accessible for the gankers and you could get them back, or the percentage on the roll if a mod is lootable at all drops in chance. Or I don’t know maybe balance the ships where you cant fit insane dps on a small investment.

I know it could be done…that’s for CCP to workout not Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#271 - 2013-03-22 01:39:01 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Could make it if you get killed in hi-sec only some of your mods are loot accessible for the gankers and you could get them back, or the percentage on the roll if a mod is lootable at all drops in chance.


maybe CCP could add a mechanic that determines whether any given bit on a ship drops

like a 50/50 chance for any given module or stack in cargo

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tesal
#272 - 2013-03-22 01:43:24 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.


I believe that was the point of the change.

You probably shouldn't be able to move 10b worth of T2 materials in one run in the near-perfect safety of a pre-nerf Orca.


The gankers have a certain threshold where they decide its worth ganking a freighter. Looking at the killmails I would venture a guess that it would be 6 or 7 billion or more for them to gank you. That's not a scientifically based number, but a rough approximation of what I know about ganking. They might strike you below that number, but it probably isn't worth their while.

If you broke up your runs into 4 billion isk lots there would be some risk but more than likely they would let you pass. The overwhelming majority of your cargo would make it to the destination unmolested. If you lost a freighter with a load that size, that's just the cost of doing business. Work in the loss of your freighters into your business plan. Losing 5.5 billion (cargo and ship) out of 50 or 100 billion isn't a crippling loss. You can guestimate you might lose a freighter every 100 runs, that's a very small percentage. The trick to hauling expensive things is to manage your risk. Pick a number of what you are willing to lose and price your loads accordingly.

You can also build into your business plan, the cost of having a courier carry stuff for you. If you put the reward high enough on public contracts people will haul it. I had big margins on the stuff I used to carry, so I set the reward at 10% of what I expected to get in Jita because I wanted the stuff hauled fast. I never had to wait more than a day for the stuff to move unless it was in lowsec. In lowsec, I put a 20% reward, and my stuff got hauled most of the time or the courier died trying. If you put a reward of 50 million on a 4 billion isk collateral load, some greedy freighter pilot would probably haul it in short order. You can set the collateral at 5 billion and if he died that would be fantastic, you are a billion isk richer.

The risk of getting ganked isn't a crisis. Just expect that it will happen if you haul enough loads. You can literally price your risk vs. reward.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#273 - 2013-03-22 01:52:32 UTC
Tesal wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.


I believe that was the point of the change.

You probably shouldn't be able to move 10b worth of T2 materials in one run in the near-perfect safety of a pre-nerf Orca.


The gankers have a certain threshold where they decide its worth ganking a freighter. Looking at the killmails I would venture a guess that it would be 6 or 7 billion or more for them to gank you. That's not a scientifically based number, but a rough approximation of what I know about ganking. They might strike you below that number, but it probably isn't worth their while.

If you broke up your runs into 4 billion isk lots there would be some risk but more than likely they would let you pass. The overwhelming majority of your cargo would make it to the destination unmolested. If you lost a freighter with a load that size, that's just the cost of doing business. Work in the loss of your freighters into your business plan. Losing 5.5 billion (cargo and ship) out of 50 or 100 billion isn't a crippling loss. You can guestimate you might lose a freighter every 100 runs, that's a very small percentage. The trick to hauling expensive things is to manage your risk. Pick a number of what you are willing to lose and price your loads accordingly.

You can also build into your business plan, the cost of having a courier carry stuff for you. If you put the reward high enough on public contracts people will haul it. I had big margins on the stuff I used to carry, so I set the reward at 10% of what I expected to get in Jita because I wanted the stuff hauled fast. I never had to wait more than a day for the stuff to move unless it was in lowsec. In lowsec, I put a 20% reward, and my stuff got hauled most of the time or the courier died trying. If you put a reward of 50 million on a 4 billion isk collateral load, some greedy freighter pilot would probably haul it in short order. You can set the collateral at 5 billion and if he died that would be fantastic, you are a billion isk richer.

The risk of getting ganked isn't a crisis. Just expect that it will happen if you haul enough loads. You can literally price your risk vs. reward.

Its not only freighters but high value mission ships.
Caldari Citizen 1897289768188
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#274 - 2013-03-22 01:56:04 UTC
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Could make it if you get killed in hi-sec only some of your mods are loot accessible for the gankers and you could get them back, or the percentage on the roll if a mod is lootable at all drops in chance.


maybe CCP could add a mechanic that determines whether any given bit on a ship drops

like a 50/50 chance for any given module or stack in cargo



Exactly and then lower that chance to 10% or less while in hi-sec....you sir are a frign genius.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#275 - 2013-03-22 02:04:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Takseen wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.


Hmm. Perhaps it shouldn't be possible to safely move about billions of bulky and valuable goods?

What would be the economic implications of allowing vs not allowing this, do you think?


Considering it had going on for 10 years before Orcas were made scan-able, the implications were not too devastating for the game.

Pray tell me, what ship to use to ferry valuable but bulky stuff. We have cov ops for BPOs, blockade runners for relatively small volumes, freighters and JFs for large volume-low per unit value items.
What's missing is something for large volume-high per unit value. I'd like a 50-70k m3 cargo ship that could be tanked to about a JF tank spec (basically 1/3 the size of an Orca). I do have a JF so I am not the one totally needing it, but I can't imagine imposing a 7B ship (whose primary role is not even to be an hi sec cargo ship) to everybody.

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#276 - 2013-03-22 02:07:34 UTC
Well yeah. As long as ships have the potential to drop really valuable fittings, or really valuable salvage, there is a profit potential there.

I'm really not sure how you can correct for that in a game that offers players as many options as EVE does--unless your solution is to do away with loot drops and salvage? Or to prevent mission runners from buying shinies? I'm really not sure.

Or, you know, you could just not put 10Bn ISK worth of stuff onto a battleship, or into a freighter...

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#277 - 2013-03-22 02:07:52 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
I don't understand why my question about a missing ship able to carry bulky and expensive cargo has been removed.

Orcas used to fill the role quite well, now I'd cringe at the thought to have to carry 5-10 runs with a load of 10B worth of T2 materials (they won't fit in a cloaky hauler).
Splitting it in a blockade runner would take like 100 runs instead of 10.


I believe that was the point of the change.

You probably shouldn't be able to move 10b worth of T2 materials in one run in the near-perfect safety of a pre-nerf Orca.


I shouldn't need to do 10 x 40 jumps trips in a slowass ship leaving 850k m3 of it completely empty either. It's totally unrealistic a futuristic technology would let such waste exist for long.

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#278 - 2013-03-22 02:36:19 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Exactly and then lower that chance to 10% or less while in hi-sec....you sir are a frign genius.


Drop chance already exists, and it's 50%, so it obviously went right over your head. Sorry, no, hisec doesn't need more exceptions.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jerome Hauleralt
Doomheim
#279 - 2013-03-22 02:49:14 UTC
Andski wrote:
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
Exactly and then lower that chance to 10% or less while in hi-sec....you sir are a frign genius.


Drop chance already exists, and it's 50%, so it obviously went right over your head. Sorry, no, hisec doesn't need more exceptions.


But...but...think of the care bears! Cry
Alara IonStorm
#280 - 2013-03-22 02:54:57 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

I shouldn't need to do 10 x 40 jumps trips in a slowass ship leaving 850k m3 of it completely empty either. It's totally unrealistic a futuristic technology would let such waste exist for long.

You could always hire a fleet of professionals to move it for you.