Player Features and Ideas Discussion

PEOPLE OF RISE
Wait...wrong one~


Attack Battlecruisers are in a pretty good place, at least on a high level. As some have noted in fleet combat they have made sniper HACs obsolete, but sniper HACs were obsolete well before Attack BCs showed up. In fact, Attack BCs added sniping back into the medium-to-large scale meta - so that's an incredibly good thing. Attack BCs are very fun to roam around in and in general they have the "feel" of a more nimble variant of their battleship counterpart. With the Cruiser and BC buff the roaming meta is significantly more dynamic so it's not all-Attack-BCs-all-the-time anymore. So from that respect I think they're in a good spot. There is one exception, however, and that is the Talos. The Talos feels more like a Vagabond than a mini-Megathron. Super fun to fly, don't get me wrong, but unlike the other BCs it can deal with smaller ships /incredibly/ well.

Does this mean Fozzie is dead. I thought he was the balance man.

Attack BCs are probably the best balanced ship class in the game. They have allowed smaller null entities to be more maneuverable, output high damage, and skirmish far more effectively than ever before. Their smaller tanks keep them well balanced; with a good enough bubble and an enemy fleet right behind you can lose the whole thing pretty quickly if you're not careful and your intel sucks.


As far as battleships go, unless you're flying a gimmick fleet, battleship play is almost always relegated to large numbers (100-200) with triage support in order to shut down any other fleet. Common doctrines include HBC's abaddons or navy apocs with archon triage and CFC's tempest fleet issues with logi and armor triage on standby. Both doctrines are usually supplemented with "slowcats", brick tanked armor RR carriers with sentry drones. These doctrines are designed to shut down an enemy aggressor entirely or force them to escalate into caps.

The most creative use we've seen of battleships currently are Darkness of Despair's rokh fleet, which fits MJDs and can peace out whenever the fight gets too hot for them.

CFC tempests: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=15842729
HBC apocs: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=16439555
DD rokhs: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=16855431

I don't really know how you would balance BS, their large HP buffer and the availability of armor triage makes them a brick wall.

i've always thought the lack of mid slots for the amarr to be crushing when considering your options

geddon , has 3 mids -> prop mods + point and either a cap booster or a web

not many options there

please dont make the baddon a drone platform , in ok with having a larger drone bay (aka Omen style) , but dont switch out an iconic ship like that. lazors are not obsolete , they just need some tracking love ( or that everyone else are dragged down to their level)

The Scorpion has too few strategic uses. I think it should be made more versatile.

I think the first thing to do here is too think what is the point/meaning of a battleship?
A tanky heavy weapon platform
And then how do they fit into each race's style of fighting without making them all the same or close as.

Gallente are rush close range brawlers.
Amarr are plated laser-boats with flexible ranges but brawler range isn't the optimal use
Caldari are all range/ tanky blasterboats
Minnmatar are just flexible and mobile.

so mega and hyperion are brawlers so tank and speed are priorities domi is versatile
Apoc is sniper abbadon is a brick and geddon is what? mobile would be useful
Rokh is tanky and versatile with op range bonus raven is sniper...yes really scorpion is ecm which defeats the point of battleship concept in my opinion i think its navy version is what it should be like.
minmatar tempest is flexible typhoon will be mobile torps Maelstrom is ASB monster.

they are kept in check in fleets because of how vulnerable they are to bombs
source:
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15741923
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15669977
http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=15423069

You can easily fit an apoc or baddon for neuting (or any bs really). Not bonussed, granted, but still good enough to kill caps if employed correctly. Added benefit: your ship doesn't scream as much for getting primed by hostiles and you can hide it better in a bait group. On the meta level the problem at this point is, that the tiericide within BS at the moment creates very different sets of racial bs. Caldari get an ewar BS and one BS for each weapon plattform, both setup for range. Amarr get a cheap and an expensive pulse plattform as well as a sniping ship. Minis will get a missile plattform (Phoon), a very tanky tier 3 that can without a lot of problems fit the biggest sniping guns and the pest, which will probably become the primary close range gun plattform after the envisioned changes. Lastly Gallente get their cheap drone plattform, a buffer and an active blaster plattform (rail mega works but with the inherent agility and the lack of range bonusses its not a sniping plattform).

Having said that i think the worst call ccp could make at this point is to take away those different flavours that racial BS have. Not only does it add more depth and allow for variation, it also increases the incentives for cross racial specialisation (beyond being able to fly pirate BS) which is in my opinion important to keep older players interested in the game. In fact the only change for general roles i'd consider is to remove the scorpions E-War bonus and leave that to specialized smaller crafts (and even that is just an idea, not a strong suggestion).

Furthermore there is another aspect to consider: costs. At this point tier 1 BS often serve as a go to ship for risky operations where you want to have more tank than a tier 3 allows but still don't want to yahoo 400 mill per tier 3 bs hull away if it goes wrong. That kind of option would go out of the window if ccp decides to do the same to BS as they did in the previous tier. It is already a bit weird that a navy geddon takes over the role of the abaddon due to being cheaper while being less taxing on the capacitor.

Speaking of throwaway ships: that role has increasingly taken over by tier 3 gank bcs (aka Nagas/Talos with Neutrons). Granted, low tank, but high mobility and if it breaks, its way cheaper than BS hulls. If that one gets a bit cut down megas with buffed agility might become an attractive alternative for fast attack fleets against caps and other high hp targets that need to be taken down (atm people use whelppests for that if the pick a bs hull). However i think that is less an issue than the rise of the naga as the rail plattform which is basicly the ultimate ship for FCs that never want to commit even large fleets cause the combination of range projection, mobility while having at least a ressemblence of a tank is pretty convincing. Counters for that fleet are scarce if you manage to dodge bombing runs. Another problem is that attack bcs have completely obsoleted hacs in any regard with very few niche ships and ahacs.

As for EHP: the general problem at this point is a bit that there has been a continous powercreep towards more DPS. Main culprits being Tier 3 BCs and dreads (the naglfar changes are another small step into that direction). Said powercreep mechanic is another reason i think we shouldn't get more T1 ewar plattforms - if people feel damps are strong just use them on unbonussed hulls like it has happened in the past (before damps got buffed). Otherwise the meta of countering hostile comps becomes even more unforgiving than it is today.

As for the tracking aspect: i personally feel that tracking at the moment is at a better spot than a lot of people claim. In the end tracking smaller ships only works if you add in webs and painters and tracking mods. Failing to bring that was what first gave rise to ahacs until people got smarter. And if you look at it, that is exactly what webs and painters are supposed to do: improve tracking. Stil, even today ahacs still remain a viable fleetcomp. I think ccp needs to avoid further exceptions to the tracking formula like the one that led to the titan tracking nerf. If the general direction in game design is to improve the ability to sig and speedtank than that should happen within the tracking formula and it should be approached with care. I think a lot of the ideas that are floating around about this topic will end up really one sided if implemented.

Apologies for a rather lengthy post that does not even touch the subject of solo BS and the state of BS vs BS warfare at a larger scale, not to mention issues with T2 BS that are still there, even after the recent BO buffs. Also something to consider at the side: maybe increase calibration points on navy BS at least. Its a bit ridiculous that i can bring up the vanilla geddon to more dps thanks to t2 rof rigs than the ngeddon.

Make attack BC's slower and make them harder to fit. Really don't see why they should be easier to fit than BS's with the biggest guns and all that crap. Ohh and remove the Talos tracking bonus and give it something that doesn't synergize quite that well with its role.

As for BS's buff tier 1's and nerf tier 3's in general.. I don't think any of the BS's should be completely overhauled, for example i will be very very sad if someone makes the geddon or apoc drone ships.

Tier 3 bc's should really have more tank than a combat cruiser its a class above after-all....... i would suggest removing a turret slot as-well their dps is a bit too high and invades battleships dps too much they are a different class and they should reflect their class more.
like the attack cruisers are too combat cruisers and then the combat battle cruiser class