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Dev blog: Updates to Team Security and the ongoing war on botting

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Claire Raynor
NovaGear
#141 - 2013-03-19 20:33:22 UTC
Rosewalker wrote:


-/-

For those interested in history, Kromtor was the player who used a crazy-cool set-up using wooden dowels and tape, among other things, to multi-box with until CCP gave Synergy the thumbs up.



What??? CCP had to give Synergy the thumbs up? So it's in the firing line too then? Synergy - the one based on QSynergy? It's nothing more than a KVM - one that auto swaps screen focus based upon if you've bashed the mouse off screen onto another screen - and operates at the OS level.. Doesn't it?

From another thread that has me freaking out a bit. . .
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2763532#post2763532
Mag's calmed that down a bit (Thanks) - but then I read this. . .

I use Synergy - have done for ages. . I'm thinking I'm need to cut my boosters loose till I know what I can and can't do.

KK
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#142 - 2013-03-19 21:01:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
I think people need to get a grip a little.

CCP knows people are using Synergy and ISBoxer. They have known people have been using them for a long long time and they have not had a problem with it.

CCP is not an emotionless evil Caldari State corporation. They are not going to just suddenly start banning people out of the blue for using software that they have been OK with for a long time.

Can we just take off the tinfoil hats a bit here and assume CCP is a rational level-headed company and has no intention of just screwing people over for the lewls?

I am using ISBoxer to multibox. I will continue to use ISBoxer to multibox until CCP tells me otherwise. I do not think CCP is hiding behind a bush waiting to jump out and say "boo". I assume that as a rational corporation they would give us some advance warning if they were to suddenly have an issue with ISBoxer.

CCP cannot just blanket white list 3rd party software that they have no control over, which is why they have stated things the way they have.

Anyway, my two cents.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#143 - 2013-03-19 21:04:09 UTC
Ahri Ohto wrote:
Please go to the Lari solar system for a day... plenty of bots there.


Why do you think they are bots? Have you ruled out the possibility of multiboxing?
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#144 - 2013-03-20 00:07:30 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
...

Can we just take off the tinfoil hats a bit here and assume CCP is a rational level-headed company and has no intention of just screwing people over for the lewls?

...

CCP cannot just blanket white list 3rd party software that they have no control over, which is why they have stated things the way they have.


Rational? That's the first word that pops up in your head when you think of CCP? First they ninja edit the post that says it's cool, very similar to the one on this thread saying that they're not going to ban people who use TS.

Then, when people start asking if anything has changed, they say nothing changed. Suddenly GMs say that ISBoxer is grey area stuff and use at your own risk. This is a real and obvious change in policy.

There's multiple uses for the same software and I find it funny that one is simply written off without publicly saying so and the other is "silly" to think they'll ban you for it.

Changes in policy that lead to bans should be announced somewhere visible.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#145 - 2013-03-20 00:13:01 UTC
Strike 1, 30 day ban. Account is not renewed. No 2nd strike! Mission success. You guys are amazing!

For the afk cloaky bots who camp systems 23/7 without interaction/effort or risk, your mission is a total failure. I guess it depends on whether the player is gaining ISK or not. Not pulling ISK for RMT? Then not CCP's interest/concern. Just an observation. See my thread on addressing cloaky cyno bots for more discussion: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=212830

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2013-03-20 02:24:28 UTC
So basically the way it works is that if I can provide proof of human capability, then use software to duplicate that, it is probably ok?

IE how isoboxer got shown after the genius guy with the hot glue and sticks.

And that anything which plays with EVE files while the client is running is a banning offense?

IE every bot since ever or more particuarly the usage of python injection to find the wh local list.
Jason Xado
Doomheim
#147 - 2013-03-20 02:54:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Jason Xado
Stray Bullets wrote:
Jason Xado wrote:
...

Can we just take off the tinfoil hats a bit here and assume CCP is a rational level-headed company and has no intention of just screwing people over for the lewls?

...

CCP cannot just blanket white list 3rd party software that they have no control over, which is why they have stated things the way they have.


Rational? That's the first word that pops up in your head when you think of CCP? First they ninja edit the post that says it's cool, very similar to the one on this thread saying that they're not going to ban people who use TS.

Then, when people start asking if anything has changed, they say nothing changed. Suddenly GMs say that ISBoxer is grey area stuff and use at your own risk. This is a real and obvious change in policy.

There's multiple uses for the same software and I find it funny that one is simply written off without publicly saying so and the other is "silly" to think they'll ban you for it.

Changes in policy that lead to bans should be announced somewhere visible.


Yes CCP is rational.

They updated the post to make it clear they do not specifiaclly white list any 3rd party software as they cannot possibly do that as they do not control the 3rd party software. As they have stated their policy toward ISBoxer has not changed. They will not ban you for using it to broadcast commands to multiple clients. Someday if the circumstances or policies change they may need to disallow the use of ISBoxer. As a rational company they will let people know in advance as many of their customers use the software.

I have been using ISBoxer to multibox for the last several months. I am aware I have been reported as a "bot" on many occasion and I have not heard a peep from CCP, because their current policy does not disallow the use of ISBoxer. I am using ISBoxer as we speak and not a peep from CCP because they are OK with people using ISBoxer.

I have not heard of a single case of someone being banned for using ISBoxer.

Let's just all get back to playing and enjoying the game and stop getting all conspiracy theory on a good and rational company that has provided us a great game and endless hours of entertainment.

My two cents anyway.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#148 - 2013-03-20 02:54:52 UTC
NEONOVUS wrote:
So basically the way it works is that if I can provide proof of human capability, then use software to duplicate that, it is probably ok?

IE how isoboxer got shown after the genius guy with the hot glue and sticks.

And that anything which plays with EVE files while the client is running is a banning offense?

IE every bot since ever or more particuarly the usage of python injection to find the wh local list.


What if they told you "If you want to multi box safely, do the hot glue and stick trick".
Arronicus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#149 - 2013-03-20 03:42:12 UTC
Jason Xado wrote:
emotionless evil Caldari State corporation.


We resent this statement. Have you told your family you love them, recently? It'd be a shame if someone went on a business trip to Uitra and wasn't heard from again.
Udonor
Doomheim
#150 - 2013-03-20 04:09:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
I think botting is another issue that can best be SOLVED by PLAYERS. The CODE alliance is already moving to do so. CCP can help by allowing greater freedom of action:

(1) Remove CONCORD protection from miners who do not respond to chat or who have not moved or changed maneuvers in the last 3-5 minutes. An active miner is constantly in motion moving to better roids.

(2) insert new modules that allow taking prisoners (anchoring capsules in space) after 3-5 minutes. If no one comes to save you in 3-5 minutes you a waste of game space and quite probably a bot as well. Anchoring your capsule in place prevents profiting by botters and reduces server deadweight from people who just aren't following the CCP game vision of PVP shooter and fleet battles.
Udonor
Doomheim
#151 - 2013-03-20 04:29:18 UTC
CCP insists on taking care of botters themselves, consider these ideas.


(1) Make mining like that old game wild asteroids, barges need to CONSTANTLY MANEUVER to stay in range of target asteroids and to avoid being damaged by collisions with other asteriods.

(2) Make roids much smaller and put wider spaces between clumps of asteroids -- so that barges must constantly change targets and maneuver. Also add a ton of crap roid targets which bots can lock on and must separate from the good stuff.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#152 - 2013-03-20 06:10:03 UTC
Isboxer: Using an external program to facilitate faster accumulation of ingame materials than would be possible within normal gameplay. It is the reason people use Isboxer.

The only reason it is not explicitly banned is because it also facilitates faster income generation for CCP.

.
DirtySnowBunny
Cherri Bombs
#153 - 2013-03-20 07:05:56 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:

A current example is ISBoxer. As GM Nythanos answered me (can't copy the text), you can't allow that software. If this is the case, why not make a simple public statement saying that X software is simply not allowed? You end up banning paying customer who actually thought they were playing straight!

This subject has been covered multiple times by DEVs.

The only negative comment was made by CCP Sreegs about it (in his security blog).
http://tinyurl.com/byebyescreegs Post #264.

Other posts:
http://tinyurl.com/CCP-Eterne Post #13

GM Lelouch wrote:

Hello there,

To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

I hope this clears up this matter.

Best regards,
Senior GM Lelouch
EVE Online Customer Support

Those proponents against programs like ISBoxer, Synergy, etc. seem to have little to no understanding of what "multiboxing" is and how exactly it is used. How many times does CCP have to answer this "dead horse" of a question?

There is a long list of games that embrace multiboxing: World of War Craft, Diablo 3, Planetside 2, SWTOR, and so on. . .
Josef Djugashvilis
#154 - 2013-03-20 07:07:39 UTC
Udonor wrote:
I think botting is another issue that can best be SOLVED by PLAYERS. The CODE alliance is already moving to do so. CCP can help by allowing greater freedom of action:

(1) Remove CONCORD protection from miners who do not respond to chat or who have not moved or changed maneuvers in the last 3-5 minutes. An active miner is constantly in motion moving to better roids.

(2) insert new modules that allow taking prisoners (anchoring capsules in space) after 3-5 minutes. If no one comes to save you in 3-5 minutes you a waste of game space and quite probably a bot as well. Anchoring your capsule in place prevents profiting by botters and reduces server deadweight from people who just aren't following the CCP game vision of PVP shooter and fleet battles.


Part of the fun of mining is ignoring ego-tripping chaps such yourself who demand that I respond to your sad attempts to get me to speak in local.

Also, deliberately not moving my ship provides me with much merriment as I read the tough guy smack talk in local.

This is not a signature.
Barzhad
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#155 - 2013-03-20 08:52:38 UTC
Sorry, but what's "RMT"?
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#156 - 2013-03-20 09:15:26 UTC
Ziranda Hakuli wrote:
I am happy to see that the BOT war is falling under more strict punishments. YAY!!!

I am curious on this as other folks in Eve have been curious as well. There is a software called ISBOXER that runs client side where it managed your clients with single key activation. Will this also be addressed in some fashion? Some folks feel that this is wrong. Will there be a new stance on t his where some of these ISBOXER users control anywhere from 4 to 20 some odd toons only to farm isk. Not talking about mining but making ISK from farming in null sec anomalies to empire mission running of some type.

Please I like to hear your thoughts on this


there have been at least 20 topics on this in general discussion.... google it the answers won' t change...
Djana Libra
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#157 - 2013-03-20 09:20:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Djana Libra
Udonor wrote:
I think botting is another issue that can best be SOLVED by PLAYERS. The CODE alliance is already moving to do so. CCP can help by allowing greater freedom of action:

(1) Remove CONCORD protection from miners who do not respond to chat or who have not moved or changed maneuvers in the last 3-5 minutes. An active miner is constantly in motion moving to better roids.

(2) insert new modules that allow taking prisoners (anchoring capsules in space) after 3-5 minutes. If no one comes to save you in 3-5 minutes you a waste of game space and quite probably a bot as well. Anchoring your capsule in place prevents profiting by botters and reduces server deadweight from people who just aren't following the CCP game vision of PVP shooter and fleet battles.


so basically if someone goes to the toilet taking a dump, makes a coffee and smokes a cig while he is mining you want to be able to get a free pass to kill him....

botting should never ever be handled by the players since they have no means to actually determin if someone is really botting.

anyways if you suspect someone botting and dislike him just blow him up.
Colonel Xaven
Perkone
Caldari State
#158 - 2013-03-20 10:18:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Colonel Xaven
Vera Algaert wrote:
CCP Stillman wrote:

But client modification right now are anything that injects/touches the running EVE process. That is, reads or writes memory into it, injects and executes code. Basically anything that modifies the client to change the client or extract information that's not normally accessible. That includes bots of course.


that description also applies to widely used tool such as the Mumble/Teamspeak overlay and fraps Shocked


Wrong.

Barzhad wrote:
Sorry, but what's "RMT"?


Real Money Trading. Buying and Selling ISK (or ingame items) for real world currency (EUR / USD / etc.) not using the official method called "PLEX".

www.facebook.com/RazorAlliance
Dathan Arturis
Central Nomad Mining Engineering Enterprise
#159 - 2013-03-20 11:26:18 UTC
I think a TRAITOR status should be introduced and replace the "WANTED" for 30 days also should be applied with NO Concord intervention in high sec and let the players punish them as well.Twisted
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#160 - 2013-03-20 12:33:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalmont Delantee
Henry Haphorn wrote:
Ta'liq Browson wrote:
I apologize for being ignorant - but what is RMT? I know if I don't know what it is then I am probably not doing it, but I like to ask anyways to be sure.


Real-Money Trading

An illegal activity (to CCP at least) in which a player sells in-game currency for real-world cash.


Otherwise known as total c**ts who do such things. I don't give a crap how much money someone has use the correct method of getting isk/items: work for it (make isk) or sell plex (sell to people who make isk). Anyone else who does it differently I personally don't look on kindly.