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Exploration, Risk vs. Reward, T3 ships and DED 4/10s
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Deus Vex
Phantom Psionics
#141 - 2013-03-15 19:52:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Deus Vex
I agree with several other posters in this thread who clearly know their stuff. As for others, I've elected not to dispute suggestions or assumptions here that would require me to reveal details/strategies that I would rather not make common knowledge. I've observed the following:

1) Some fixes suggested here would damage the sandbox nature of the game (/ further)
2) Some fixes suggested here would create outrageous imbalances that are easily exploitable
3) Some fixes suggested here would be a nightmare to code, and would mostly lead to the above

Most are concerned about making the DSP super-fast scanning-and-plexing-for-big-pay-outs work in their favour while minimising risk and inconvenience and not having to rage about people 'stealing' their plexes.

Well it works both ways. If you want to level the playing field, randomize the sig strength of plex's. That returns these sites to the probers. What will that mean? The one low-SP guy in HS who's slowly scanned a couple of systems may find a lucky plex to run with their corpies. The guy in a T3 may find and run a plex, utilising his SP and all-in-one ship to find and run it immediately. Supposing he can actually tolerate probing more than 1-2 sigs per system, he has an advantage by roaming around.

This suggestion is scaleable. You can randomize plex's between 2 or 3, rather than all, sig bands, giving DSP's an advantage still. You can also introduce this in just HS, or go all out and apply it to HS, LS, and NS.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#142 - 2013-03-15 19:58:33 UTC
Deus Vex wrote:
I agree with several other posters in this thread who clearly know their stuff. As for others, I've elected not to dispute suggestions or assumptions here that would require me to reveal details/strategies that I would rather not make common knowledge. I've observed the following:

1) Some fixes suggested here would damage the sandbox nature of the game (/ further)
2) Some fixes suggested here would create outrageous imbalances that are easily exploitable
3) Some fixes suggested here would be a nightmare to code, and would mostly lead to the above

Most are concerned about making the DSP super-fast scanning-and-plexing-for-big-pay-outs work in their favour while minimising risk and inconvenience and not having to rage about people 'stealing' their plexes.

Well it works both ways. If you want to level the playing field, randomize the sig strength of plex's. That returns these sites to the probers. What will that mean? The one low-SP guy in HS who's slowly scanned a couple of systems may find a lucky plex to run with their corpies. The guy in a T3 may find and run a plex, utilising his SP and all-in-one ship to find and run it immediately. Supposing he can actually tolerate probing more than 1-2 sigs per system, he has an advantage by roaming around.

This suggestion is scaleable. You can randomize plex's between 2 or 3, rather than all, sig bands, giving DSP's an advantage still. You can also introduce this in just HS, or go all out and apply it to HS, LS, and NS.


I get the point with randomizing but i also think that spending time learning the sig strengths of the sites you want to run should still give an advantage over someone who didn't do it.
Deus Vex
Phantom Psionics
#143 - 2013-03-15 20:24:24 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
Deus Vex wrote:
I agree with several other posters in this thread who clearly know their stuff. As for others, I've elected not to dispute suggestions or assumptions here that would require me to reveal details/strategies that I would rather not make common knowledge. I've observed the following:

1) Some fixes suggested here would damage the sandbox nature of the game (/ further)
2) Some fixes suggested here would create outrageous imbalances that are easily exploitable
3) Some fixes suggested here would be a nightmare to code, and would mostly lead to the above

Most are concerned about making the DSP super-fast scanning-and-plexing-for-big-pay-outs work in their favour while minimising risk and inconvenience and not having to rage about people 'stealing' their plexes.

Well it works both ways. If you want to level the playing field, randomize the sig strength of plex's. That returns these sites to the probers. What will that mean? The one low-SP guy in HS who's slowly scanned a couple of systems may find a lucky plex to run with their corpies. The guy in a T3 may find and run a plex, utilising his SP and all-in-one ship to find and run it immediately. Supposing he can actually tolerate probing more than 1-2 sigs per system, he has an advantage by roaming around.

This suggestion is scaleable. You can randomize plex's between 2 or 3, rather than all, sig bands, giving DSP's an advantage still. You can also introduce this in just HS, or go all out and apply it to HS, LS, and NS.


I get the point with randomizing but i also think that spending time learning the sig strengths of the sites you want to run should still give an advantage over someone who didn't do it.


With static sig strengths, it's all public and easy to look up and match initial hits to your probing strength, thanks to a certain website.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#144 - 2013-03-15 21:14:41 UTC
If you randomize sig strengths why have a DSP anymore in the game? Honest question.
Deus Vex
Phantom Psionics
#145 - 2013-03-15 21:32:43 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
If you randomize sig strengths why have a DSP anymore in the game? Honest question.


To get a clear idea of all sigs and their strengths in even the biggest systems. I'm talking about randomizing rated DED sig strengths alone. Possibly only between a couple of sig bands, and possibly only in High Sec.

DSP's will still be massively useful, and it would be business as usual for those who aren't using DSPs to zerg rated DEDS.
Draycia Zarrkos
Island Monkeys
#146 - 2013-03-15 23:01:39 UTC
St Mio wrote:


So, what do you think?
[ ] Exploration is fine, Working as Intended™
[ ] Exploration is broken, Risk ≠ Reward
[ X] High-sec exploration should be nerfed
[ X] Low-sec exploration should be buffed (not too much, a little bit, lowsec in general should get some small buffs)
[ ] Ban all T3 ships from high-sec exploration
[ ] Nerf Deep Space Probes


-Rename invuln fields to gist/pith (Someone suggested this, I like his suggestion)
-Rename EANM to corpus/centus/core as well
-maybe move resist-specific hardeners to lowsec?

I agree on the thing with the key and the first gate locking after you take it from DMC

CCP could also balance nullsec exploration by making the easy sites a bit more difficult:
-angel 10/10 is a joke, all 10/10's should be difficult like the blood raider one Twisted
there are many more examples of really easy sites, some factions lack ewar, some sites are really short.
Angel sites should have more webs and more powerful webs (stasis towers pop in 1-2 volleys) so you can't solo tengu speedtank all the sites for easy isk. There are more factions with really easy ewar, for DED's ccp could even mix it up a little bit more to make the sites interesting. Now it's more probe for the site and run it before someone else finds it.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#147 - 2013-03-16 01:23:58 UTC
Deus Vex wrote:
Supposing he can actually tolerate probing more than 1-2 sigs per system


What a princess.

Go check out a wormhole sometimes. You're often looking at 20+ sigs in a single system. The most I've seen was 53 in a single system.
Makavelia
National Industries
#148 - 2013-03-18 11:57:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Makavelia
I made more in 1 single high sec 4.10 last night than a full month of low sec mag/rad. Considering it was also the week end.. and i was in matar space, I found it rather shocking.


I'm not sure how many low sec sites i ran in that month, 3 per night on avg.


The high sec loot was a invul, 400 mil.

The low sec loot was mostly rad chips (about 12mil avg per site).
The mag salvy sites on avg 2mil per site (1 site i got 30mil from T2 salvy)
The mag archy sites i got mostly bpc's that are worth avg 10mil each.. but are very difficult to sell.

Rad sites were most common finds, about 70%, while the mag salvy/archy made up the rest.



To find the invul took me about 1 hour scanning total, including time to run the site.

To find/run 3 mag/rads per night took around 2 hours on avg, taking into account having to scan multiple systems while avoiding pirate hubs/activity etc.




You can run 4/10's in low if you can find them. I finaly gave up.. and against what i knew would happen, i went and done just that. All be hold, the systems that were once quite.. became gate camped the second i started jumping a bc around. After some session change lag blablablabla i lost a bc. Even if i did not lose the bc, they were actively hunting me.. and would have continued to do so. I'd have been probe dout of any site i did try to run, even on another day.. since pirates tend to ''live'' and roam in certain areas.




I'm not ranting on here, but i hope ccp can look at the real findings of a ''solo'' explorer and see why theirs no insentive what so ever to go into low sec.


Also like to add. I did try in all efforts to make low sec worth while. I started producing some of the T2 rigs that had the most chance to sell while being cheap enough in meterial that i could use the T2 salvy i gained from the mags. The t2 rigs (4 of them) i put on atrade hub market at a lower price than any other that was currently active at the time. Over 1 week later they are still not sold.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#149 - 2013-03-18 14:16:59 UTC
Draycia Zarrkos wrote:

-angel 10/10 is a joke, all 10/10's should be difficult like the blood raider one Twisted



ALL 10/10s are a joke except the Blood Raider one, it's not just the angel one that is too easy. The Gurista 10/10 (the MAZE) is even easier and much safer (I leave most NPCs alive in the 1st 4 rooms to guard me against gankers lol).
Makavelia
National Industries
#150 - 2013-03-18 15:01:32 UTC
Just loged on, spent 30 min scanning high sec, found a 4/10 and got a 350mil shield booster.

What happened to this game ;p
dexington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2013-03-19 06:56:28 UTC
Makavelia wrote:
Just loged on, spent 30 min scanning high sec, found a 4/10 and got a 350mil shield booster.

What happened to this game ;p


fools, who think 350M made in 30 with exploration is the same as 700M every hour, started playing this game.

I'm a relatively respectable citizen. Multiple felon perhaps, but certainly not dangerous.
Makavelia
National Industries
#152 - 2013-03-19 23:03:52 UTC
dexington wrote:
Makavelia wrote:
Just loged on, spent 30 min scanning high sec, found a 4/10 and got a 350mil shield booster.

What happened to this game ;p


fools, who think 350M made in 30 with exploration is the same as 700M every hour, started playing this game.


If i was unlucky and found only 1 good mod per week in high sec i would still make more/same than low sec rad, mag, t2 production and low sec PI put together on a monthly basis, with a single char.

The high sec i run with a cane, probably one of the worst of the viable ships to be doing 4/10 in. I also don't have dsp's and i have 67 scan strength. Running high sec with far less than optimal will make me same/more money than all those low sec ventures requiring a boat load more skills + some risk and a lot more effort.

Again, what happened to this game.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#153 - 2013-03-19 23:20:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Makavelia wrote:


If i was unlucky and found only 1 good mod per week in high sec i would still make more/same than low sec rad, mag, t2 production and low sec PI put together on a monthly basis, with a single char.

The high sec i run with a cane, probably one of the worst of the viable ships to be doing 4/10 in. I also don't have dsp's and i have 67 scan strength. Running high sec with far less than optimal will make me same/more money than all those low sec ventures requiring a boat load more skills + some risk and a lot more effort.

Again, what happened to this game.



You are comparing apples with oranges. I _personally_ make less isk doing ded 5s in lowsec, than I do doing ded4s in highsec, but I have little doubt that people that are good at ded5s and ded6s hunting and completing without frequent shiploss would match or better my highsec income.
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#154 - 2013-03-20 00:13:37 UTC
Half the problem is really just market forces and shield module demand you know.

And by that I mean Incursions.
Sodohm
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#155 - 2013-03-20 02:04:15 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Half the problem is really just market forces and shield module demand you know.

And by that I mean Incursions.


Yea, because incursions are responsible for the high price of medium shield boosters, right ....
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#156 - 2013-03-20 02:58:26 UTC
Sodohm wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Half the problem is really just market forces and shield module demand you know.

And by that I mean Incursions.


Yea, because incursions are responsible for the high price of medium shield boosters, right ....


Touche. Regardless they are still between 6 and 3 times more expensive than c-type medium armor reps
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#157 - 2013-03-20 06:59:45 UTC
Makavelia wrote:

I also don't have dsp's and i have 67 scan strength.


toptip: what you can do with dsp, you can do with combat probes aswell(unless the system is unusually huge).
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#158 - 2013-03-20 07:12:46 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:


Touche. Regardless they are still between 6 and 3 times more expensive than c-type medium armor reps


Given that it repairs more hp/cap, more hp/sec, hits more frequently and hits at the start of the cycle not the end, when compared with a c-type med armor rep (any sort), one shouldn't really be suprised to find its favoured on the market.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#159 - 2013-03-20 07:58:42 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
Makavelia wrote:

I also don't have dsp's and i have 67 scan strength.


toptip: what you can do with dsp, you can do with combat probes aswell(unless the system is unusually huge).


Can still do it, just need to do it piecemeal or with more probes.
Makavelia
National Industries
#160 - 2013-03-20 09:20:10 UTC
Ueberlisk wrote:
Makavelia wrote:

I also don't have dsp's and i have 67 scan strength.


toptip: what you can do with dsp, you can do with combat probes aswell(unless the system is unusually huge).


''unsusually huge'' give me a break.

Theirs plenty of systems big enough so that you end up with a big red sphere. Adjust probe, scan again.. and that 4.10 band sig quickly becomes an ignore.

I'm not complaining about that, but please don't say they are the same o0.