Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Teckos certainly saw how my proposals would end the easy reign of cloaky cynos. He worries about a lot, but I will address a few of his concerns. What I am looking at is to allow sov null sec to have sov benefits without cloaky cynos easily and risklessly walking all over them. There is no other mechanic that allows a solo alt to have such a large effect on a system or constellation, than the cloaky cyno mechanic.

Answer to [1]: It does make hot dropping more difficult .. in sov null sec only, IF the mask is up. Counter drops, though, are not new to Eve. Do I need to spell out that fleets can come in and kill the masks (they will be on the overview system-wide)? Another reason to fight. Yay pvp.
Answer to [2]: Yes, #2 does affect SB with cyno only. Obviously, the ratter is only dumb if he cannot dispose of the SB in under a minute. The delay does make the cloaky cyno mechanic not completely risk-free and easy, true, but cynos can be about more than just bringing quick points on distant targets. Also, the resident cloaky can be fit to tank with point up, while a cloaky cyno from the next system comes in to light the cyno.
Answer to [3]: #3 only addresses regular cynos. Covert bridges can bring in regular cynos. This gives yet another use for blops.
Answer to [4]: Technically, non-cloaked ships would only see in local: Player A disconnected. They would only know that he has not uncloaked in a k-space system.

Hope these answers help clarify the misunderstandings.

Edit: If these proposals increase the amount of normal activity while hostiles are in system, there will obviously be less waiting for the locals to get comfortable and more pvp opportunities for smart pvpers.

You know, the cloaky part of this issue you have is not the central theme you are describing.

You have a problem with hot dropping.

I think you would find cloaked vessels far more acceptable if they could not hot drop.

Funny part to this, if it was not for local chat showing an instant population spike when a fleet entered a system, hot dropping would be avoided as a foolish risk.
Pilots using local never ignore a non-blue population spike, and the only way to avoid advertising your fleet is to hot drop.

Do you see the connection now?

Then, as Mag's so often connects these with local and cloaking, what mechanism inspires hot dropping as well as gives AFK Cloakers their power to inspire terror?

That is your real problem.

you can have your anti cloaky crap if you give me cloakies that can fire while cloaked and have uber tank. And make me a sandwich when you go back to the kitchen.

Get rid of force projection via cynos and there will be less PvP not more contrary to Andy's claims. His solutions would mean a return to entering via a gate...which would put the force not in system at a disadvantage since the defender would know exactly where you were going to come in at.

With a cyno there is alot less certainty as to where the hostile force will show up. Will it be across the system, necessitating a warp which gives the hostiles a chance to form up and turn on their tanks, etc.? Will it be right on top of your fleet and they are coming in with close range fitted ships to your long range ships?

Andy's problem is he doesn't like conflict. He wants less of it, not more.



No duh, the point is that unless there is a TZ hole for the attacker, then that first attempt to cyno in will mean the defender will know precisely where they are cynoing in at. And I'd anchor bubbles to **** all around that mask too. So they cyno in and have to stay there so the defender can come in and have a huge advantage.

This is not balanced. It would further cement the existing power blocks in place in null.



And force recons, and covert ops as well. Oh and T3 cruisers as well, they can fit covert ops cloaks and covert ops cynos too now (I think on that last one).

And the ratter doesn't have to dispose of the SB, he can merely warp off. Heck he can't even turn on what little tank he might have or his prop mode. You've effectively neutered these ships they are literally helpless in that all the SB could do is fly under standard power or warp. That's it. Didn't you read your own moronic proposal?



WTF? You seem to have forgot that #2 prevents the cloaked ship from activating ANY module you stupid ****. Hence you can't point, tank, shoot, or anything. Solo hunting ratters in a cloaky, even actively, under #2 would be utterly and completely impossible unless the guy stumbled across a ratter who left his ship in space and went AFK or was so dumb he probably should be forcibly sterilized to keep his stupidity from being spread further into the gene pool. Note these would be active players who don't have a cyno fit but are hunting sloppy ratters.

I was talking about an Arazu fit with a regular cyno so it could cyno in a combat fleet from a titan.



No they can't and changing that was not part of your proposal. Really, think before you write, that way you wont look so stupid.



That was not at all clear in your proposal. And frankly I think the term should be that the player disappears from local chat upon cloaking. In fact, the part of your proposal that the cloaked character would disappear from the system he jumped out of implies that there would be some sort of indicator he was still there. In short, you want to have your cake and eat it too.



I'm not at home so can't check with EFT, but I'm pretty sure most ships that fit a covert ops cloak would be nerfed to Hell with a 1600mm plate. Hell, most of them couldn't even fit it (an SB or a Covert Ops) the fitting demands for a plate are too high for such small ships.

I think you are playing the wrong game. You just don't want PvP unless you consent to it or it is on your terms.

Not only that, but many of these changes will impact non-hot drop uses of cynos. For example, if you want to move more ships back into a fight that is taking place these suggestions would make it harder.

I know people have an issue with force projection--moving supers/dreads/titans/etc. across one side of New Eden to the other rather rapidly, but that is quite different from cynoing in ships from a staging system in a given region to another system in the same region.

Trying to link his initial anti-cloaking rant to the above issue of force projection is just an example of Andy Landen trying to boot strap onto a legitimate issue with his illegitimate concerns.

Via edit:

Also it is probably not a good idea to fix one part of the game by breaking other parts. Taking a niche class of ships and turning them into rubbish is not a good idea.

So hears the question.. is local channel the reason null sec has become so stale concerning anything other then large scale fleet fights over obstacles? As it stands now wh space and low sec are where the good pvp is.

The problem with the mask and cyno jammer combo you have a tough nut to get over in terms of taking down that system in a sov war situation. You have to kill both. Even if you kill the jammer and the mask, if they have multiple a second mask as you initially suggested that makes it even harder. And if they get another mask onlined before the cyno goes up you are basically walking into a trap.

Sov warfare right now is a PITA. Sometimes we get lucky and get some decent fights, but then comes the structure grind, and that is not fun after awhile.

I know that the issue of AFK camping is a PITA for people who just want to exploit their system(s) but you don't want to screw over pilots who do use cloaking ships but not for AFK cloaking (i.e. me and pilots like me, I rarely AFK cloak in a system and I when I do it is because RL rose up and bit me on the posterior and I had to AFK).

So here is a good rule of thumb, think about your suggestions and think, "Will this break force recons for use in a fleet fight situation?"

For example, group A has a final timer for a station. The guys that logged in force recons in the system the first time around to light cynos aren't going to be able to join in. So you want to get a couple of new guys in there to light a cyno for titan bridging and bringing in the big boys. With some of your ideas, if group B is camping the gate then that will be tremendously harder than it currently is. For example your solution of any ship fit with a regular cyno be slowed way down and can now be scanned down. If I were group B I'd likely have bubbles on both sides of the gate(s) with scanning ships out on the chance there would not be a cyno ship in system already. I'd also be scanning in the target system all the time as well as soon as a hostile pops up in....yes, local chat (funny how that works).

Your suggestion here really gimps active pilots who are using a cyno for something other than ganking some tard in a bling ship shooting Gurista pirates. And since AFK is still part of the title (for now ) this is not really an acceptable solution.

Also think about how a suggestion could be abused. Sure eventually it might be deemed an exploit, but why even open that can of worms?

As for possible solutions:

I'm leaning towards something where a cloaked pilot is not visible in local chat (and he can't see local chat either, he'd have to rely on D-scan to see where he is going), possibly with a timer or something like initiating warp. That is if the pilot is just stationary or using his standard engines he'd eventually disappear from local and couldn't see local. But once he starts warping around he becomes visible in local and can see local. IDK, it is just a rough idea here. The idea behind warping is that the cyno pilots above could more easily navigate around...after all, we aren't interested in punishing them they aren't AFK.



No, you don't get anything. I don't AFK cloak in systems. I have done some BLOPs work, but on those occassions our hunter was active, not playing AFK. I do use cloaking ships, one time when camping a pipe a bunch of us in SBs and recons sat around some bubbles and killed people trying to get through on their own. It was during the TEST/Goon invasion of Fountain. I have acted as a scout for gangs, fleets, and in big fleet fights.



I do believe you just shot yourself in the foot there Hoss. If they have a way to secure their systems against AFK cloakers, then there really isn't a problem is there?

1. It would really help your case if you didn't overstate things such as limitless force, there is no limitless force in Eve from players. There is overwhelming force, but that is very contextual, a guy in a T1 cruiser getting bounced by 3 guys in HACs has run into overwhelming force, but it sure as hell isn't limitless.

2. You keep saying zero risk, but you are misstating the issue very badly. Sure there is very little risk, but there is opportunity cost. Every second I spend in some backasswater system denying some scrubs ratting I am losing out on other opportunities. This even goes for my alts...hint: all of my alts do stuff to put isk in my main's wallet.

3. At least one of your proposals poses significant risks before the cyno is lit. The one that limits speed and allows for scanning.

Seriously, you are not reading your suggestions or thinking about them. Another basically trashes any ship that can fit a covert cloak. Why bother even training for them if you are stuck able to do nothing for a full minute? Can't turn on your tank, can't activate the cyno, guns, point, nothing. For 60 seconds you are a very easy target.



Ever been in a big fight? I mean a big one? I was in H-W with IT during Max 2 (or whatever it was). Managed to get out in a BS and come back...in an Arazu along with a bunch of SBs. We had to get past about a 100 man camp to get in system and to get past the same camp to get out. I managed both. There was a lot of risk as there were ships flying around, cans out, bubbles everywhere, and I had to spend considerable amount of time finding the right approach and slow boat around to get out. There is plenty of risk when actively piloting a cloaking ship in various circumstances. That a cloaked ship is perfectly safe while sitting at a safe in a nearly empty system with its cloak on is not game breaking...it isn't even a game problem. It is about as annoying as a high sec industrail corp getting war decced.

1. Dude, look at my Alliance and Corp....I've fought them and with them.

2. Zero does not equal small....

3. It is too much risk, you are going to an extreme...