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Should Ganking be profitable?

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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#121 - 2013-03-19 22:40:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
miners cannot argue why their wealth generation which scales indefinitely needs to be so passive and safe beyond "mining is boring" which is still an awful argument since other forms of wealth/isk generation are also boring and cannot be done so passively

sure you can argue that moons generate wealth passively but they cannot be mined in areas that minimize the risk profile, as anywhere that moon mining is allowed also allows sieging of towers without the need for a wardec, and high-end moon mining does not scale indefinitely as the number of those moons is very, very limited - for example, there are less than 400 tech moons in the entire game, while there is no limit to the number of afk retrievers/macks that can operate in a single ice belt

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tesal
#122 - 2013-03-19 22:49:58 UTC
Andski wrote:
miners cannot argue why their wealth generation which scales indefinitely needs to be so passive and safe beyond "mining is boring" which is still an awful argument since other forms of wealth/isk generation are also boring and cannot be done so passively

sure you can argue that moons generate wealth passively but they cannot be mined in areas that minimize the risk profile, as anywhere that moon mining is allowed also allows sieging of towers without the need for a wardec, and high-end moon mining does not scale indefinitely as the number of those moons is very, very limited - for example, there are less than 400 tech moons in the entire game, while there is no limit to the number of afk retrievers/macks that can operate in a single ice belt


After we destroy the miners who make passive isk, we must destroy the traders who make isk while not even being logged in. Death to traders.
Alara IonStorm
#123 - 2013-03-19 22:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alara IonStorm
Tesal wrote:

After we destroy the miners who make passive isk, we must destroy the traders who make isk while not even being logged in. Death to traders.

Don't be silly, your evil plan to destroy all the miners will never work Tesal. CCP introduced the Dirt Cheap Procurer and Strong Skiff. They are literally the fallout shelters of mining.

It would be quite hard to destroy the miners who perceive a large threat and move to stronger ships like these that also have a more then adequate yield.

Thank you CCP for helping provide the tools for Miners to defend themselves.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#124 - 2013-03-19 23:03:43 UTC
Tesal wrote:

After we destroy the miners who make passive isk, we must destroy the traders who make isk while not even being logged in. Death to traders.


It's hard to destroy people that never undock.

Miners don't have to die by the dozen, with a little effort and actually paying attention at least 50% of exhumer ganks would fail, it's probably a similar percentage for haulers. One of the reasons that gankers are successful is that they're not out walking the dog, or doing their laundry, they're at their keyboard, because ganking actually requires you to play the game. AFK hauling or ice mining don't require you to be at the keyboard, all they require is that you undock, hit a few buttons, and then go and do something else if you feel like it. If AFK gameplay in space was removed from the game, it would become a better game for everybody, including the currently AFK.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Whitehound
#125 - 2013-03-19 23:05:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Whitehound
Andski wrote:
gankers are important because they add a dimension of gameplay to the staleness that is hisec, the fact that it's only relatively safer than other areas of the game and not to the point where you can expose the entirety of your wealth in a single ship and not risk losing it in one swoop

I honestly do not know what that thing with the dimensions of staleness is. Seems to be a fabrication of your own mind. Other than this have I already explained that there is not just one type of ganking.

Just because something is PvP does not automatically make it good PvP. To assume this is the dumbest thing one can do just after hating PvP itself. It is important to ask for the reasons why a play style exists and to see why it is good and why it is bad, because it can be used to improve the PvP experience.

Having no reasons for either removing it, or keeping it, means that it can be ignored, because it is of no value whatsoever. It just hangs in there until someone cares enough to do something (either improve it or drop it for something better).

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Theron Vetrus
Doomheim
#126 - 2013-03-19 23:09:45 UTC
HollyShocker 2inthestink wrote:
I do know how I see things and have the ability of being even brained and can see things from multiple points of view. I may not always agree with those views...


Confirming that "even brained" is code for "has schizophrenia". At least now we know what's wrong with you. Your points of view are so erratic, you can't even agree with yourself.

Take what you can, give nothing back. Psychotic Monk for CSM8
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#127 - 2013-03-19 23:13:11 UTC
GreenSeed wrote:
gankers argue that ganking is pvp, then how come ganking should be profitable when pvp isnt?


In fact the wrong is that PvP isnt.

I have played other PvP games where I never had to stop PvPing to earn a lot of money by killing scores of people. That was fun and profitable.

EvE PvP should be profitable too. That'd be also an excellent "Joe The 0.0 Grunt" bottom up income.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#128 - 2013-03-19 23:15:30 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

I always imagine Tippia standing in front of a brick wall while saying these things lol. Because that's how effective it is at convincing the other party that their beliefs are unfounded.


1) Because convincing anyone out of their ideas on a forum (or television too) is a futile task.

2) Because some of Tippia's posts are boring and/or mind numbing and/or captious enough that would make the brick wall fall asleep.

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Alara IonStorm
#129 - 2013-03-19 23:20:49 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

In fact the wrong is that PvP isnt.

I have played other PvP games where I never had to stop PvPing to earn a lot of money by killing scores of people. That was fun and profitable.

EvE PvP should be profitable too. That'd be also an excellent "Joe The 0.0 Grunt" bottom up income.

EVE needs to let us disable, board and tow ships. Big smile
Lin Suizei
#130 - 2013-03-19 23:21:46 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Just because something is PvP does not automatically make it good PvP. It is the dumbest thing one can do just after hating PvP itself. It is important to ask for the reasons why a play style exists and to see why it is good and why it is bad, because it can be used to improve the PvP experience.


Clearly, "good" PvP is everything except suicide ganking miners, which is arbitrarily bad.

Lol I can't delete my forum sig.
Xen Solarus
Furious Destruction and Salvage
#131 - 2013-03-19 23:26:18 UTC
I think that ganking should only be profitable when the correct target is found. Such as someone who is carrying a massive amount of isk in goods or mods, silly enough to be flying around advertising themselves. General ganking of any-old person should not be profitable. If it were, they'd be even more people claiming to be elite "PvPers" in highsec than there already are. True PvP should be found in low and nullsec space, where is suppose to be going down. But the highsec ganker crowd have found their easy-mode, with their risk-free completely one-sided carebear targets. Why risk an actual PvP battle when they can get their kills and loot so easily from targets that don't shoot back?

Most of them wouldn't know PvP if it came up and slapped them in the face! Cool

I'd argue that pirates are a victim of their own success. They've taught highsec players over and over, the hard way, that coming to lowsec often results in a quick death, often in the jaws of a waiting gatecamp. Now they've succeeded in turning lowsec into a wasteland, seems only logicial they'd move to highsec to continue the slaughter. Who cares that it harms the game as a whole, and prevents newer players from making the natural progression to low and nullsec space? As long as they're getting their easymode, the gankers will continue to defend their niche, and continue to yammer their highsec-hating rhetoric to justify their position.

Post with your main, like a BOSS!

And no, i don't live in highsec.  As if that would make your opinion any less wrong.  
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#132 - 2013-03-19 23:31:57 UTC
Xen Solarus wrote:
I think that ganking should only be profitable when the correct target is found. Such as someone who is carrying a massive amount of isk in goods or mods, silly enough to be flying around advertising themselves. General ganking of any-old person should not be profitable. If it were, they'd be even more people claiming to be elite "PvPers" in highsec than there already are. True PvP should be found in low and nullsec space, where is suppose to be going down. But the highsec ganker crowd have found their easy-mode, with their risk-free completely one-sided carebear targets. Why risk an actual PvP battle when they can get their kills and loot so easily from targets that don't shoot back?

Most of them wouldn't know PvP if it came up and slapped them in the face! Cool

I'd argue that pirates are a victim of their own success. They've taught highsec players over and over, the hard way, that coming to lowsec often results in a quick death, often in the jaws of a waiting gatecamp. Now they've succeeded in turning lowsec into a wasteland, seems only logicial they'd move to highsec to continue the slaughter. Who cares that it harms the game as a whole, and prevents newer players from making the natural progression to low and nullsec space? As long as they're getting their easymode, the gankers will continue to defend their niche, and continue to yammer their highsec-hating rhetoric to justify their position.


We have been pirating ships in high sec for a decade. This is not anything new.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#133 - 2013-03-19 23:33:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Lin Suizei wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Just because something is PvP does not automatically make it good PvP. It is the dumbest thing one can do just after hating PvP itself. It is important to ask for the reasons why a play style exists and to see why it is good and why it is bad, because it can be used to improve the PvP experience.


Clearly, "good" PvP is everything except suicide ganking miners, which is arbitrarily bad.


the only bad PvP is the PvP where I'm on the losing end, you see

naturally if I was in a ship that could shoot back they'd be pasted since i'm the best pvper in the universe

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#134 - 2013-03-19 23:35:44 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

In fact the wrong is that PvP isnt.

I have played other PvP games where I never had to stop PvPing to earn a lot of money by killing scores of people. That was fun and profitable.

EvE PvP should be profitable too. That'd be also an excellent "Joe The 0.0 Grunt" bottom up income.

EVE needs to let us disable, board and tow ships. Big smile


Imagine an EvE with SWTor elements...

And dogfights. Oh if only I could hop in a Rifter and use the joystick and be blasted by irradiating fun like I did when I played X-Wing and Tie Figther for DOS.

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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#135 - 2013-03-19 23:37:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
I think that ganking should only be profitable when the correct target is found. Such as someone who is carrying a massive amount of isk in goods or mods, silly enough to be flying around advertising themselves. General ganking of any-old person should not be profitable. If it were, they'd be even more people claiming to be elite "PvPers" in highsec than there already are. True PvP should be found in low and nullsec space, where is suppose to be going down. But the highsec ganker crowd have found their easy-mode, with their risk-free completely one-sided carebear targets. Why risk an actual PvP battle when they can get their kills and loot so easily from targets that don't shoot back?

Most of them wouldn't know PvP if it came up and slapped them in the face! Cool

I'd argue that pirates are a victim of their own success. They've taught highsec players over and over, the hard way, that coming to lowsec often results in a quick death, often in the jaws of a waiting gatecamp. Now they've succeeded in turning lowsec into a wasteland, seems only logicial they'd move to highsec to continue the slaughter. Who cares that it harms the game as a whole, and prevents newer players from making the natural progression to low and nullsec space? As long as they're getting their easymode, the gankers will continue to defend their niche, and continue to yammer their highsec-hating rhetoric to justify their position.


We have been pirating ships in high sec for a decade. This is not anything new.


TBH I'd love to see actual boarding of the ships and then taking them away, no destruction needed for a pirate who wants to profit off his victims. That's piracy! Pirate

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#136 - 2013-03-19 23:41:51 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:


TBH I'd love to see actual boarding of the ships and then taking them away, no destruction needed for a pirate who wants to profit off his victims. That's piracy! Pirate


I would need a large hat and a flintlock.
Theron Vetrus
Doomheim
#137 - 2013-03-20 00:37:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Xen Solarus wrote:
I think that ganking should only be profitable when the correct target is found. Such as someone who is carrying a massive amount of isk in goods or mods, silly enough to be flying around advertising themselves. General ganking of any-old person should not be profitable. If it were, they'd be even more people claiming to be elite "PvPers" in highsec than there already are. True PvP should be found in low and nullsec space, where is suppose to be going down. But the highsec ganker crowd have found their easy-mode, with their risk-free completely one-sided carebear targets. Why risk an actual PvP battle when they can get their kills and loot so easily from targets that don't shoot back?

Most of them wouldn't know PvP if it came up and slapped them in the face! Cool

I'd argue that pirates are a victim of their own success. They've taught highsec players over and over, the hard way, that coming to lowsec often results in a quick death, often in the jaws of a waiting gatecamp. Now they've succeeded in turning lowsec into a wasteland, seems only logicial they'd move to highsec to continue the slaughter. Who cares that it harms the game as a whole, and prevents newer players from making the natural progression to low and nullsec space? As long as they're getting their easymode, the gankers will continue to defend their niche, and continue to yammer their highsec-hating rhetoric to justify their position.


We have been pirating ships in high sec for a decade. This is not anything new.


That doesn't make his point any less valid.

Take what you can, give nothing back. Psychotic Monk for CSM8
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#138 - 2013-03-20 00:48:38 UTC
Theron Vetrus wrote:
That doesn't make his point any less valid.

his point isn't valid because right now it is the case that ganking isn't profitable unless it's a loot pinata

it's also not valid because he's harping on that "lowsec is a ring of death" myth when people jump into lowsec systems flying solo all the damn time

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#139 - 2013-03-20 01:15:57 UTC
Theron Vetrus wrote:


That doesn't make his point any less valid.


It does when you look back to the start of high sec piracy. We are just a breeze in the wind compared to the hellstorm that was M0o.
Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#140 - 2013-03-20 01:54:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Georgina Parmala
Whitehound wrote:
You then cannot kick miners out of the game, because you need the minerals, but you can well kick gankers out of the game, because they are not needed for anything.

So it still needs a good argument. Miners have all the good arguments. Why cannot those cheap gankers have good arguments?


There are some people that would disagree with you. Traders and industrialists for example. You know, the ones that make transport and sell things. Things like Catalysts, Retrievers, Mackinaws, Mining modules, Small Blasters, Tornados, Talos, Large Artillery, Large blasters, Invuls,Small and Medium rigs, Kin/Therm hardeners. Mission runners who dump (however marginally) higher amounts of faction Antimatter.

You need minerals you say? Well salvage is needed too. Considering ships of both parties turn into salvage in almost all ganks, that provides a steady supply.

You want a good argument why someone should be able to gank for ***** and giggles? Because without that you can't do it when you have a legitimate reason either. It's a perfectly fine way to get around people dropping to NPC corps/refusing to undock/not logging in when wardeced. You just take a personal loss on the gank, Sec status hits and give them kill rights instead of paying the wardec fee. I did this a while back, deliberately using some pretty silly overkill just to make a point. You don't think I should be able to do that?

If you remove suicide ganking because it's no fun for the target, what's next?
Stop other miners from targeting "your" rock?
Stop people from scanning down and invading "your" mission to shoot triggers and screw with you?
Stop people from salvaging "your" wrecks?
After all, there are "good reasons" for why these things are bad for the target and unnecessary for the offender to be able to do. I mean, the offender can just go run missions or mine or go to low/null to pew pew. It's not like there's nothing better for them to do.

What's next? Save CCP bandwidth by not even connecting to the server? Hosting your own local instances while in high sec systems, connecting to the server only to pick up market orders or when you choose to join a chat channel? You could mine what you want in peace, mission effortlessly in all the bling you want, autopilot around with 80 Bil in a freighter.

Sounds like a perfect game.
A single player one.

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

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