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Dev blog: Updates to Team Security and the ongoing war on botting

First post
Author
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#121 - 2013-03-19 14:34:06 UTC
Prospector Yurskeld wrote:
I can't really read or express my thoughts in complete sentences but I like posting anyway


If they came to system via a stargate they would remain in local registry and appear in local chat once logged back. Station could work like gates and add docked and on-grid pilots to local.

.

Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#122 - 2013-03-19 14:41:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Seranova Farreach
i would like to see the flattened star map with visual representations of where and amount of botters were banned, just because im curious.

PS. whats CCP goign to do about this "BACON" program? nerf local (to how it is for Worm holes) to make the program null and void?

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Deranged FleX
Ozark Cartel
#123 - 2013-03-19 14:43:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Deranged FleX
What is your plan, CCP, on combating the FALSE positives you have on RMT transactions? Are you going to change you policies on how you do your investigations so you stop taking isk (banning I guess now) from innocent people. Especially the ones who buy characters from the bazaar who did the RMT transaction before being sold?

This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying one account, Deranged Flex, on the forums your forums and doing everything correctly. What is your new plan to combat false positive and rectify your ineffectiveness to get it right the first time?
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2013-03-19 14:55:13 UTC
Deranged FleX wrote:
This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly.


At some point didn't you think about stopping buying negative isk accounts?
Once burnt twice shy and all that?
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#125 - 2013-03-19 15:03:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
Olaf4862 wrote:
Just a thought but banning just the account for 30 days is not going to hurt a botter with multiple accounts.

Might I suggest a ban on the IP used also for 24 hrs to make the point clear that botting is not acceptable. This will do more then just effect their botted account but any other account coming from that IP.
Yes I understand that it might adversely effect players in the same household who are not botting but an IP block might help to put on the added per pressure that its not OK to bot. Twisted


As a professional network engineer I can attest that this will absolutely not work. At all.

It is silly easy to change your IP address on any residential connection at will by modifying your DHCP client ID and/or your MAC address. Heck, most residential grade connections change IPs rather frequently on their own anyway. It is also very easy and cheap to go stand up a cloud server at Amazon as a proxy and then just cycle through cloud servers (each one with a new IP) as needed.

This might also open the door for all kinds of nasty tricks with IP spoofing and replay attacks against other players depending on how the EVE servers handle the generation of initial TCP sequence numbers.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-03-19 15:14:06 UTC  |  Edited by: mynnna
Deranged FleX wrote:
What is your plan, CCP, on combating the FALSE positives you have on RMT transactions? Are you going to change you policies on how you do your investigations so you stop taking isk (banning I guess now) from innocent people. Especially the ones who buy characters from the bazaar who did the RMT transaction before being sold?

This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. What is your new plan to combat false positive and rectify your ineffectiveness to get it right the first time?


Based on the lack of responsiveness it seems to be same as the old plan: Ignore it until or unless called out as loudly as possible in public, perhaps not even then.

"We don't comment on individual cases" is understandable and expected but it does not or at least should not preclude them from commenting in a general sense. "We investigate all claims" is all well and good, except for the evidence to the contrary, and the willingness to leave people in the dark in the meantime.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Deranged FleX
Ozark Cartel
#127 - 2013-03-19 15:16:42 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
Deranged FleX wrote:
This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly.


At some point didn't you think about stopping buying negative isk accounts?
Once burnt twice shy and all that?


It wasn't negative until a month later after I purchased it. Had a positive wallet.
Deranged FleX
Ozark Cartel
#128 - 2013-03-19 15:23:04 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Deranged FleX wrote:
What is your plan, CCP, on combating the FALSE positives you have on RMT transactions? Are you going to change you policies on how you do your investigations so you stop taking isk (banning I guess now) from innocent people. Especially the ones who buy characters from the bazaar who did the RMT transaction before being sold?

This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly. What is your new plan to combat false positive and rectify your ineffectiveness to get it right the first time?


Based on the lack of responsiveness it seems to be same as the old plan: Ignore it until or unless called out as loudly as possible in public, perhaps not even then.

"We don't comment on individual cases" is understandable and expected but it does not or at least should not preclude them from commenting in a general sense. "We investigate all claims" is all well and good, except for the evidence to the contrary, and the willingness to leave people in the dark in the meantime.


Thanks and I believe you are right. I left out information on petitions that were not answered (near a month) or closed as I believe I can't talk about it here. It's one thing to take someone's isk and another to ban especially when they have multiple false positives on RMT OR people are buying legal toons the prescribed way and getting hit with the RMT hammer. Their process must not be reading logs or whatever they have or they would see a character transfer took place.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#129 - 2013-03-19 15:33:40 UTC
virm pasuul wrote:
Deranged FleX wrote:
This account along with ALL my accounts are -13Billion isk because of buying it on the forums correctly.


At some point didn't you think about stopping buying negative isk accounts?
Once burnt twice shy and all that?

Oh most likely that's not what happened. What happened is he did RMT then tried to hide it with various transactions and character transfers. When CCP caught him he came here to the forums to whine about it and proclaim his innocence. Well, as CCP Sreegs was fond of saying: People who do bad things have been known to lie.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction

Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#130 - 2013-03-19 15:44:33 UTC
CCP Stillman wrote:
We hope to see you all at Fanfest!


Cry
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#131 - 2013-03-19 15:57:30 UTC
Shine On You Crazy Darius
Ereilian
Doomheim
#132 - 2013-03-19 16:13:08 UTC
Impressive to see you catching the low end users, and those who are either dabbling or just bad at botting. Still no real action against the alliances that sponsor and run on RMT and botting, still no big name bans against those who earn a living from it in the real world.

Just like the "War on Drugs" in the RL, pointless useless waste of money just to catch low end users.
CCP Peligro
Doomheim
#133 - 2013-03-19 16:21:24 UTC
Marxius Imate wrote:
I've always been curious about how the RMT/Negative wallet works. If someone sells something to a RMTer, either by accident or supposed collusion (lol eve money laundering), how far do you trace the funds? For example:

An alt Scumbag 1 (SB1): RMTs say 1 Billion
The main Scumbag 2 (SB2): Sells SB1 an item worth ~1 Billion on market.
SB1: Then trades that item to a another alt/player (SB3)
SB3: Sells that item to a random buyer in Jita at nearly the same price (nominal loss on "high ticket" items)
SB3: Gives money to SB2
SB2: Now has the RMTed money and a bit of occurs.
SB1: Gets banned/negative walleted, but who cares, he was an alt.


Sorry if that's complicated, I just absolutely hope the entire chain is brought down, RMTer is literally the death of economies in games.


We can and will trace illegally obtained ISK and/or assets as far as is necessary. I'm not going to put a disposable alt billions of ISK into the red; I will find your main.

In addition to this, punishment in the form of bans for RMT is not limited to the offending account, we'll take action against all accounts found to belong to the offender.

CCP Peligro - Team Security

virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2013-03-19 17:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: virm pasuul
Vincent Athena wrote:

Oh most likely that's not what happened. What happened is he did RMT then tried to hide it with various transactions and character transfers. When CCP caught him he came here to the forums to whine about it and proclaim his innocence. Well, as CCP Sreegs was fond of saying: People who do bad things have been known to lie.


Its my experience of online gaming that a significant portion of exploiters and cheaters like to spread fear uncertainty and doubt about the methods that companies use to defeat them. Exploiters like to introduce doubt within the larger player base that the company is acting fairly or transparently in order to undermine player confidence in the system. If this player confidence in the company's good faith can be undermined sufficiently then the player base starts calling the company out.
Deranged FleX
Ozark Cartel
#135 - 2013-03-19 18:09:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Deranged FleX
virm pasuul wrote:
Vincent Athena wrote:

Oh most likely that's not what happened. What happened is he did RMT then tried to hide it with various transactions and character transfers. When CCP caught him he came here to the forums to whine about it and proclaim his innocence. Well, as CCP Sreegs was fond of saying: People who do bad things have been known to lie.


Its my experience of online gaming that a significant portion of exploiters and cheaters like to spread fear uncertainty and doubt about the methods that companies use to defeat them. Exploiters like to introduce doubt within the larger player base that the company is acting fairly or transparently in order to undermine player confidence in the system. If this player confidence in the company's good faith can be undermined sufficiently then the player base starts calling the company out.


That was not my intention nor is my concern based upon your "feelings". My concern is what is the security team doing to insure less or no false positives on the character bazaar. Thanks to the help of CCP after my post, I know it wasn't an issue with the security team. My concern here was related to their DevBlog. I don't think CCP acts unfair but I do know that sometimes there are false positives. There is a petition system to correct it, but it is a slow moving cog of guilty until logs prove you're innocent.

I am here as a paying customer asking a question. My question was partially answered with an EveMail with CCP Peligro about my specific concerns. I am not happy waiting a month now and probably longer, but at least I have some answers on what took place. I am content to know this will be cleared up.
Stray Bullets
Perkone
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-03-19 18:57:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Stray Bullets
So after a few days of people bitching about the ninja editing, GM Lelouch edited the 3 year old post again and wrote the following. He's basically saying the same as GM Nythanos is telling me via petition. That they can't say if a specific software is allowed or not and you should "know the rules".

My question is the same as I made in the petition. If CCP can't determine if a third party app is ok or not, how are we, the players, supposed to know? GM Nythanos told me that if I have doubts, then don't use the third party application in question.

But we already had a Dev stating that they aren't banning people for using the Teamspeak overlay because ... it's silly. So clearly the literal interpretation of the rules is not the one CCP is using yet they refuse to specify anything.

I highlighted the relevant parts.

GM Lelouch wrote:

Edited by: GM Lelouch on 18/02/2013 08:29:22
Addendum by GM Lelouch:
This post was originally written almost three years ago and as software/hardware evolves, so must our stance on what goes within our game. It has become increasingly difficult for us to track the capabilities of various pieces of software over the years as their number, as well as the features they offer, increase greatly in number.

In other words, it is unfortunately impractical for us to evaluate whether specific pieces of software can be used without breaking EVE's EULA/ToS. This post should not be taken as endorsement for utilizing specific pieces of software/hardware with EVE, but as a guideline to what is acceptable.

Our general stance towards the concept of multiboxing has not changed but we cannot guarantee that the EULA is being upheld should you use any of the software/hardware mentioned by name in this post, nor will we at EVE customer support be able to officially endorse or sanction specific third party multiboxing programs.

Players wishing to multibox are responsible for familiarizing themselves with our EULA and Terms of Service, the following clauses in particular are of much relevance to this topic:

EULA:
6. CONDUCT
A. Specifically Restricted Conduct
2. You may not use your own or third-party software to modify any content appearing within the Game environment or change how the Game is played.
3. You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game.

ToS:
21. You will not attempt to decipher, hack into or interfere with any transmissions to or from the EVE Online servers, nor will you try to create or use any third party add-ons, extras or tools for the game.

The old, out of date, post can be seen below as it originally appeared:

"Hello there,

To make a long story short, automation of gameplay is not permitted; players must be manually issuing the commands to control their character(s) at all times.

Our stance on programs such as Synergy and hardware/software combination such as the G15 keyboard is that they can be legitimately used as long as gameplay isn't automated. Synergy allows you to move your mouse cursor to multiple different monitors which are hooked up to different computers and we do not have any qualms with players using the program for this purpose. If Synergy was used in some way to control your accounts for you without a need for you to be at your keyboard, then that would not be allowed, but I am not aware of such a functionality with this program. If Synergy is used in conjunction with some other program to automate gameplay, it would not be permitted. G15 "macros" which allow you to group different commands into one keypress are allowed. For example, setting your G1 key to press F1, F2, F3 and so on for you with one key press is allowed (although this specific command is not as useful as it was before now that we have weapon grouping).

An exceedingly complex G15 macro which would effectively automate gameplay, such as mining, without a need for the player to be present at his keyboard would be against the EULA, regardless of whether the player utilizing said macro is sitting at his keyboard at the time!

Lastly, multiboxing is allowed, and programs designed for multiboxing in mind which allow a player to manually issue the same command to multiple game clients at the same time are allowed. In the same vein as what has been stated above, the player must be manually sending the commands; if a program is automating those commands for you, then it would be considered a breach of our EULA.

I hope this clears up this matter."

Source: http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1291641&page=10#274

This is not rocket science. Regarding TS we've got confirmation, for now, that the overlay is ok. Regarding ISBoxer, the Devs say nothing has changed in their policy but the GMs are ninja editing 3 year old rulings and then saying they can't guarantee you're respecting the EULA if you use ISBoxer. This is a policy change!

CCP, please, this is not complicated. Will we get banned for using ISBoxer for simple multiboxing? Not talking about bots. Not talking about any kind of automation. Just the normal mouse and keyboard mirroring through multiple clients. This is a simple answer.

You can either detect the people using bots with ISBoxer or you can't, meaning people not using bots will get false positives. In which case, you should just rule the thing out. End of story.
Josef Djugashvilis
#137 - 2013-03-19 19:09:17 UTC
It may be the case that new players do not realize how seriously CCP take botting offences, or indeed what botting is.

I had never heard of the term 'botting' when I started to play Eve. For some time I thought it meant killing NPC ships.

Perhaps when folk are doing the basic Eve tutorials, they should be made aware that RMT and botting (with some examples of what constitutes botting) is bad for the game and that it could lead to them being perma-banned.

This is not a signature.

Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#138 - 2013-03-19 20:07:33 UTC
Stray Bullets wrote:


CCP, please, this is not complicated. Will we get banned for using ISBoxer for simple multiboxing?



It is a complicated matter because CCP has no control over ISBoxer. Today that software might be fine and not result in you breaking the EULA.

Tomorrow the company that makes it might make some changes that means using it does break the EULA.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'

Ahri Ohto
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-03-19 20:11:32 UTC
Please go to the Lari solar system for a day... plenty of bots there.
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
#140 - 2013-03-19 20:28:32 UTC
CCP Peligro wrote:

We can and will trace illegally obtained ISK and/or assets as far as is necessary. I'm not going to put a disposable alt billions of ISK into the red; I will find your main.


Hallejuja, our prayers has been heard.

He is Judge Peligro.

CCP Greyscale: As to starbases, we agree it's pretty terrible, but we don't want to delay the entire release just for this one factor.