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Torps and Cruise Missiles... do they need a boost?

First post
Author
John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#21 - 2013-03-19 09:33:03 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
EvEa Deva wrote:
8 launcher slots would be nice.


on the raven?


And the SNI. An SNI with 8 CMIIs would make me hard TBH. And not much does get lead in the old pencil at my age Pirate

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

Janna Windforce
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-03-19 10:21:43 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
Torps are only fine when fired from a stealth bomber, mainly to do with range and explosion radius bonus on the hull.


Bombers have no bonus for explosion radius. Only velocity + rich dmg bonus.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#23 - 2013-03-19 10:29:41 UTC
Torps are basically fine now that GMP affects them.

Cruise is not, it has no role, a long-range anti-BS missile is simply not very useful, it's too niche. This will probably remain the case regardless of any sensible cruise changes. More speed and more damage would help, maybe at the cost of range.

The Raven is not okay either, it's too flimsy and slow. Shift a highslot to a medslot. Maybe we'll end up with gangs of MJDing cruise Ravens. Lol
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#24 - 2013-03-19 10:35:51 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Stealth bombers are already very powerful, and perform their intended role well. As such, a buff to torpedos themselves, would be very problematic, and would throw stealth bombers out of balance.


It seems odd to keep a battleship weapon useless for battleships in order to keep a Frigate balanced. It wouldn't be hard to reduce the stealth bomber bonuses to match any buff to torps. Eg: Increase torp range by 15% -> reduce stealth bomber total range bonus by 15%.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2013-03-19 10:44:31 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Torps are basically fine now that GMP affects them.


There's the issue of fitting; short range turrets take considerably less fitting than the long range turrets, to reflect the greater requirements of getting up close and into tackle range. Torps, on the other hand...

And of course there are no weapon tiers for missiles. Neutron blasters take up too much grid? You can drop to Ions, nbd. Torps take up too much grid? Too bad, you have to burn a low-slot on a fitting mod.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#26 - 2013-03-19 10:45:53 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

The Raven is not okay either, it's too flimsy and slow. Shift a highslot to a medslot. Maybe we'll end up with gangs of MJDing cruise Ravens. Lol


Let's not forget its feeble powergrid.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Jin'baan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2013-03-19 11:10:33 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

The Raven is not okay either, it's too flimsy and slow. Shift a highslot to a medslot. Maybe we'll end up with gangs of MJDing cruise Ravens. Lol


Believe it or not, Ravens were once considered the elite PvP ship back when you could stack prop mods. You could run at the speed of your missiles and pull horrific alpha as you kept firing on the approach, meaning you had 2-3 volleys all hitting at once. Look up Cavalry Ravens sometime.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#28 - 2013-03-19 12:33:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
I still haven't heard about any drawback of the Raven compared to other LR BS. Of course, it have less tank than resist bonused ones, but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh, and dps/projection is among the best.

And as a bonus, you can fit heavy+medium neutra.

Only lacking field are close range dps (not that low considering you don't need range modules) and damage application to smaller targets.

And considering the Raven is a tier2 BS, it will probably get a hp boost with tiericide.

Problems come when you try to solo in your Raven. Then, indeed, it lack utility mid slot, but that's the problem of all shield tanked BS.

PS : I forgot about this drawback : the cruise Raven worse problem is that it's a worse HML tengu : same ehp with lower resists ; same or a bit more dps with lower damage application against smaller target ; less speed and larger signature. Yet, it is cheaper and have neutralizers.
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#29 - 2013-03-19 13:30:20 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh
The mael is a better shield-tanker than the raven. Or the scorpion.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#30 - 2013-03-19 13:39:19 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
EvEa Deva wrote:
8 launcher slots would be nice.


on the raven?


And the SNI. An SNI with 8 CMIIs would make me hard TBH. And not much does get lead in the old pencil at my age Pirate


i would love to see that! scorp navy with 8 launchers!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#31 - 2013-03-19 13:39:24 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I still haven't heard about any drawback of the Raven compared to other LR BS. Of course, it have less tank than resist bonused ones, but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh, and dps/projection is among the best.



For PvE, maybe. As soon as you start fitting a Mandatory Warp Drive and a point to your torp raven, you're in deep fitting trouble. Compare it to the other torp boat, the Typhoon. Phoon is considerably faster, has a far smaller sig radius, a whopping drone bay and 3 utility slots. And it can easily fitted to have a better armour tank than the raven's shield tank. And the phoon can actually fit those slots. And very likely it will soon have a Target Painter bonus.

Against that, the Raven has a mighty 9km range bonus.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#32 - 2013-03-19 13:41:17 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Torps are basically fine now that GMP affects them.

Cruise is not, it has no role, a long-range anti-BS missile is simply not very useful, it's too niche. This will probably remain the case regardless of any sensible cruise changes. More speed and more damage would help, maybe at the cost of range.

The Raven is not okay either, it's too flimsy and slow. Shift a highslot to a medslot. Maybe we'll end up with gangs of MJDing cruise Ravens. Lol



that would be pretty cool cuss the missile is good at any range right so mjd around with an boosted cruise could make the raven fleet actually viable... omg is it 2007 again!??!

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#33 - 2013-03-19 13:44:44 UTC
[
Janna Windforce wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
Torps are only fine when fired from a stealth bomber, mainly to do with range and explosion radius bonus on the hull.


Bombers have no bonus for explosion radius. Only velocity + rich dmg bonus.


you're right ofcuorse my bad,

Though it still is the hull that makes it good and not the torpedo's, also strangely the only non structure busters ships that are considered viable with Torpedos (Golem and SB) ndon't have just a damage and range bonus, but they have a SB 75% on lvl5 Golem 100% damege bonus and 100 and 50 % range increase at lvl 5.


no other weapon system needs such a bonus to be viable.

In my eyes they should completly rework both torps and cruise and then nerf the SB's and the Golem if that would make them to powerful.


A weapon should not need sucha bonus to be usuable.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#34 - 2013-03-19 13:50:27 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
I still haven't heard about any drawback of the Raven compared to other LR BS. Of course, it have less tank than resist bonused ones, but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh, and dps/projection is among the best.



For PvE, maybe. As soon as you start fitting a Mandatory Warp Drive and a point to your torp raven, you're in deep fitting trouble. Compare it to the other torp boat, the Typhoon. Phoon is considerably faster, has a far smaller sig radius, a whopping drone bay and 3 utility slots. And it can easily fitted to have a better armour tank than the raven's shield tank. And the phoon can actually fit those slots. And very likely it will soon have a Target Painter bonus.

Against that, the Raven has a mighty 9km range bonus.


the raven has the same bonus as the caracal right?

so i would expect simular boost that the caracal got to apply for the raven...

well that and a cruise/torp bonus...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

John Ratcliffe
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Holdings
#35 - 2013-03-19 13:50:39 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh
The mael is a better shield-tanker than the raven. Or the scorpion.


Of course it is, it gets a 7.5% Shield Boost per BS level IIRC. Neither of the other hulls are bonused...

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#36 - 2013-03-19 13:55:48 UTC
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Reppyk wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh
The mael is a better shield-tanker than the raven. Or the scorpion.


Of course it is, it gets a 7.5% Shield Boost per BS level IIRC. Neither of the other hulls are bonused...



well to make torps usefull you have to take up mid slots... to get the range bonus for cruise you need sensor boosters...

so that means the raven to use either weapon types has to give up usefull mid slots and its tank becomes small...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#37 - 2013-03-19 14:21:26 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:

Cruise is not, it has no role, a long-range anti-BS missile is simply not very useful, it's too niche.


I did find a niche once though. If you want to take out a few key defensive batteries on a defended pos with a small number of caldari-focused pilots, you could get decent dps out at 250km with cruise missiles. It was a very small niche. But then ccp reduced cruise range and you can't even use them for that anymore.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#38 - 2013-03-19 14:41:19 UTC
Kodama Ikari wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:

Cruise is not, it has no role, a long-range anti-BS missile is simply not very useful, it's too niche.


I did find a niche once though. If you want to take out a few key defensive batteries on a defended pos with a small number of caldari-focused pilots, you could get decent dps out at 250km with cruise missiles. It was a very small niche. But then ccp reduced cruise range and you can't even use them for that anymore.


The only cruise range decrease I can recall was limited to Fury, CN still has a paper range of 253 km before rigs - and rigs will let Fury hit that far anyway.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#39 - 2013-03-19 14:45:47 UTC
Torp Raven for PvP is fairly beasty. And torps in general are good for what they do.(Close range DPS on large hulls, structures.)

Cruise missiles used to be on stealth bombers, and it was pretty sweet. And I have fitted them on Scorpions to snipe with,(while jamming) but I NEVER have considered Cruise to be a major DPS option.
For sniping, I think the Rokh is just a better Caldari option.

Cruise could use a buff. Although... Cruise is probably the king of PvE

I like Ravens in my fleets, because I know they will get primaried Cool

I don't think a 7 launcher T1 Raven is viable. CNR has that already.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#40 - 2013-03-19 16:06:07 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
John Ratcliffe wrote:
Reppyk wrote:
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
but it have the best shield tank after the Rokh
The mael is a better shield-tanker than the raven. Or the scorpion.


Of course it is, it gets a 7.5% Shield Boost per BS level IIRC. Neither of the other hulls are bonused...



well to make torps usefull you have to take up mid slots... to get the range bonus for cruise you need sensor boosters...

so that means the raven to use either weapon types has to give up usefull mid slots and its tank becomes small...


In comparison the Rokh has to make very few compromises.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016