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Crime & Punishment

 
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CCP: To Catch an Awoxer, where do we draw the line?

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Kristopher Rocancourt
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2013-03-04 12:57:55 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
The amount of damage a spy can inflict is disproportional to the amount of defense offered. No alliance in EVE is immune to this threat, as a matter of fact the poster child for spying "Awox" is a verb to even the newest players of EVE learn.

Awoxing is basically the act of placing a member within a hostile alliance and betraying that alliance to tackle and cyno hell down upon your unsuspecting alliance mates. This term originates from an actual player named "Awox"

So what the hell do we do about it?

In EVE our toolbox is empty, so our real power comes from "outside" and this right here folks is where the line is crossed.

+ Making friends via 3rd party activities (Guilds, clans, etc)
+ Using facebook information to present yourself as a former classmate. (Dale from the Latin Club)
+ Selling yourself as a potential business partner who could land you a big sale! (Toyota Dealership in Detroit Michican)
+ Setting up a meet IRL (2012 EVE Vegas)

All of these out-of-game tools can be used and have been used to find out who doesn't belong. Most of them are borderline or cross the line to "Creepy".


So CCP please grant us the tools required to stop spies.

"Golly Mr. Gerard, you sure have given us a lot to think about."

But wait there's more!

I have been given the dubious honor of revealing a awoxer! =) This bit of information may not be relevant to most of you but should be a *popcorn* event for those who are.

Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.


Snitches get stitches.

http://killalliance.co.uk/tears/tears-holeysheet/

Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#42 - 2013-03-04 20:10:53 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
API is hopeful thinking. Purchase a new character, play the game for a few months with it, insert into unsuspecting corp. API defeated.



If you're accepting new members with clean histories then this is a risk you must take.

If you can't tell its an alt account by talking to the person and examining the API, if the person 100% acting the part and taking hours and weeks to convince you, if this person earns the trust you place in them, then they've indeed earned it. There is nothing inadequate about the game mechanics when they fail to allow you to stop them.

If being a successful spy takes no effort or skill, then it just means that those who were fooled had less skill and put forth less effort.

Some first-hand PI tips
Porucznik Borewicz
GreenSwarm
#43 - 2013-03-05 23:04:44 UTC
Gotta Catch 'Em All!
dark heartt
#44 - 2013-03-06 02:56:08 UTC
Professional Forum Alt wrote:
There is a thread on the "Features & Ideas Discussion" about this subject too.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=210905

Simple idea - Remove legal killing of corp mates. Why is actually allowed ?



So that you can practice PVP with them perhaps?

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Iminent Penance
Your Mom's Boyfriends
#45 - 2013-03-06 22:15:58 UTC
Guys I thought of an easy solution, demand remote access to their pc at all times, and boot them the moment it drops!

Also keyloggers, MULTIPLE KEYLOGGERS.

Thank me for solving this problem logically and easily
AzzA Amilupar
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2013-03-07 02:36:25 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.


YOU SIR ARE A D.I.C.K
Melissa Juarez
Frame Perfect
Kybernauts Clade
#47 - 2013-03-07 02:40:35 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
Kaylee Jakuard the "Industry Captain" of Imperial Guardians, and member of the Tribal Band alliance, is actually an informant for the alliance Black Legion.


Stupid people like this make my head hurt
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
#48 - 2013-03-07 04:14:52 UTC
Quality posting from the two of you, I am glad to see there is solidarity within your alliance on this issue. I posted the discussion I had with your diplomat, and he told me has already taken steps to ensure the safety of his operations.

You two however, seem to be in disagreement, which clearly demonstrates your alliance is far from a union of harmony and togetherness... but instead suffers from excommunication issues as well as a general lack of preparedness. I can certainly understand why one would believe your alliance is immune to spies with such a coordinated internal effort.

I commend both AzzA Amilupar, and Melissa Juarez from demonstrating the best your community has to offer. Twisted

Now with 100% less Troll.
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-03-07 14:49:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Some key recruiting principles...

Use the API's properly: First, confirm an applicant has applied with his 'main' toon and request the names of his alts. Once he has 'disclosed' THEN ask for a full API and check for any ISK transfers in/out of his main to other toons. Any undisclosed alts and no go.

Also, request full API's for alts he DID disclose, and then do the same xref check to follow the money. Again, if he lied and there are transfers in/out of other 'mains' or sketchy alt toons, do not accept.

Once you have a good sense of all his toons, then send a quick email to his past CEO's where his stay's were short, asking about him.

Don't openly recruit if possible. That is, focus on finding people to invite into corp rather than accepting 'walk ins'. Surf system local looking for people with short employment histories and send them recruitment invites.

If you take the time to do this, you can filter out a LOT of shite lords.

Would you like to know more?
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#50 - 2013-03-10 03:38:47 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Super spikinator wrote:
Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox.

You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid

I bet someone read this and went "challenge accepted".

Challenege accepted.

@Super splinaudisahdaiudqw:
Haha, If you are going to SRP M1 ****, you may s well shoot youself in the ******* foot. That would only promote a spy who wants to get the best benefit possible to fly **** in your fleets.
Quit Whining
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2013-03-11 16:18:28 UTC
I made the mistake of starting to read the opening post without first checking the poster...if only I'd realised it was a Tom Gerard thread I could have prevented myself from wasting those minutes and just opted to assume it was inconsequential, unsubstantial and baseless drivel.
Marlon Darmazaf
e-L00T Ltd.
#52 - 2013-03-11 16:22:12 UTC
The Line Must be Drawn Here

So... um... yeah!
Joceline
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#53 - 2013-03-14 04:44:10 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
bufnitza calatoare wrote:
Iminent Penance wrote:
Demand their physical address and have them meet you in person before joining.

What could possibly go wrong, and itl fix this! You see exactly who they are.

OOOOh or demand a keylogger. Another brilliant, easy solution to solve everything allowed in eve with NO consequence



would never work with me. if they wanna travel to nz then bully for them.

if they do live in nz and with the travel about 700-900km even more bully for them.


I would travel to half moon bay if it meant sweet sweet tears. That means both the cook and the foveaux straits.

Onto the topic at hand

Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox.

You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid
Joceline
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2013-03-14 04:44:42 UTC
Super spikinator wrote:
bufnitza calatoare wrote:
Iminent Penance wrote:
Demand their physical address and have them meet you in person before joining.

What could possibly go wrong, and itl fix this! You see exactly who they are.

OOOOh or demand a keylogger. Another brilliant, easy solution to solve everything allowed in eve with NO consequence



would never work with me. if they wanna travel to nz then bully for them.

if they do live in nz and with the travel about 700-900km even more bully for them.


I would travel to half moon bay if it meant sweet sweet tears. That means both the cook and the foveaux straits.

Onto the topic at hand

Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox.

You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid


My problem with all this is that it causes an unnecessary amount of hassle for all of us that are not spies.

The core problem is that the risk/reward ratio for doing bad things to other people is out of whack. I have no problem with scamming, spying, whatever evil thing you can think of doing. But if I catch you in the act, or even after the fact, I should be able to extract some justice. Simply acting in a reciprocal fashion isn't really the same thing. That makes me just as bad as you. I should be able to get justice without being evil. And by bad/evil I mean in game, I'm not connecting those terms to the RL person.

In some cases this would be very easy to fix, such as stealing isk from a corporation. Just add controls on spending and withdrawals that can only be lifted by a majority vote.

Or maybe a bond/surety system of some type. You put up a bond to join a corp, and if the majority of corp members vote that you did something bad to them, you have to pay up. CCP could provide some canned corp bylaws for stuff like this that they approve of.

Of course this could be used to scam a corp member, but it would require the cooperation of a lot of people of you had requirements such as bonds could only be used by corps with at least 100 active members, etc..
StoneCold
Decadence.
RAZOR Alliance
#55 - 2013-03-14 07:42:13 UTC
Professional Forum Alt wrote:


Simple idea - Remove legal killing of corp mates. Why is actually allowed ?



Because EvE is run by corporations. They have to care about their own security.

The bigger corps i was in didn´t get awoxed (afaik). Why?
Maybe because of their recruitment process and the following requirements (activity and such) which an "alt" probably couldnt hold (high standards).

If i hear that some people send in cold apps to 25 corps and are accepted to 10-15 without a single word with the recruiter -> don´t blame ccp for that.

My true stories
Jensaro Koraka
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2013-03-14 12:19:15 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
API is hopeful thinking. Purchase a new character, play the game for a few months with it, insert into unsuspecting corp. API defeated.

That takes a lot of money and effort for something that only works once. Anyone willing to go to such obsessive lengths is uncounterable anyway, regardless of how they go about the attack.

"Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats." -H.L. Mencken
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#57 - 2013-03-19 08:08:45 UTC
There are many many creative ways of catching Spy's and Awox'ers, Just get really creative without getting to creepy.

-Yes, the API is very handy, if it looks to clean or to dirty and doesnt act like it, prepare to AWOX the spy and dont forget to pod just before kicking.
Also, use your head and never miss a single word that crosses you in corp/alliance chat, EVERY spy makes some kind of mistake, its up to you and your officers to PAY ATTENTION, even if that some one never says more then hi, by.

Trick is to know more then the spy and to keep this information from them, I.E. avoid talking about the details in public.
Mike Adoulin
Happys Happy Hamster Hunting Club
#58 - 2013-03-19 10:43:23 UTC
You guys are aware that CCP stealth patched Crimewatch so that a corpie that shoots another corpie now goes Suspect (flashy yellow)?

The corpie that got shot is then in a Limited Engagement with his now-Suspect corpie......

And now, of course, anybody can pop the Suspect corpie. Anybody at all.

CCP is getting tricksy, they is.

As for having CCP finding a game mechanic to stop spies.....

*ROFLMAO*

Sorry, you are going to have to figure that one out for yourself folks, I hear IRL intelligence agencies have been pondering this same question as well.....

Everything in EVE is a trap.

And if it isn't, it's your job to make it a trap...:)

You want to know what immorality in EVE Online looks like? Look no further than Ripard "Jester" Teg.

Chribba is the Chuck Norris of EVE.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2013-03-19 14:40:01 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Super spikinator wrote:
Awoxing is pretty simple to minimize, nothing will stop someone who is completely psyops grade determined to get you awoxed though (see BOB). basics are starting an ingame convo with them, using eve voice with them, check their employment history, ask for a temp full api key - and then actually look at it (seriously guys), then as long as you don't have any suspicions from that you can go ahead and invite them into a holding corporation or secondary corporation if you do not run an alliance. The candidate should be within that holding/secondary for about three months or so then bring them into a main corporation but don't dish out any roles. Any reimbursement program you run should require them to post a killmail to claim back and also minimize what is available to be reimbursed (such as only reimburse in war time, only reimburse set ships, only T1 meta 1 is available for reimbursement, etc, etc). Note, as I typed, a determined individual will be able to get through any gauntlet you throw - the key thing to do is decentralization so that you can minimize and recover from any awox.

You can ask for permanent apis if you are paranoid

I bet someone read this and went "challenge accepted".


Myself & La Nariz awox a lot & are happy to provide API's, we just don't give the person access to anything incriminating. Most of the time they don't bother checking it anyway (even when they say that they are) & the rest of the time we blame CCP for messing up the API key & they let us in anyway.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Angelique Duchemin
Team Evil
#60 - 2013-03-19 16:41:53 UTC
There's far too much deep-seated deception in this game. I don't like it at all.

I do not envy the people who are tasked with unravelling it.

The very sun of heaven seemed distorted when viewed through the polarising miasma welling out from this sea-soaked perversion, and twisted menace and suspense lurked leeringly in those crazily elusive angles of carven rock where a second glance shewed concavity after the first shewed convexity.