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AFK Cloaking?
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Georgina Parmala
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-03-18 23:12:06 UTC
Well, if you read around the forums a bit you would be well aware that it's not a problem.

You see, there is this thing people talk about called the Blue Doughnut. Everyone out in null is blue to each other you see. So even if an AFK cloaky lights a cyno, who exactly is going to bridge to it? Your friends?

Sure, you might get the odd ragtag gang of highsec mining bots that reshipped to recons. But what are they going to do? Warp to a belt and kick out mining drones?

Science and Trade Institute [STI] is an NPC entity and as such my views do not represent those of the entity or any of its members

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=276984&p=38
Mag's
Azn Empire
#42 - 2013-03-18 23:20:41 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Mag's, if you don't want Local go to WH space!
Who said I didn't want local?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#43 - 2013-03-19 09:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
Dracvlad wrote:
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Mag's, if you don't want Local go to WH space!


It's not about wanting or not wanting local, it's about accepting the fact that the local system chat channel being used as an absolutely infallible, instant, and zero effort intel tool is broken and any shenanigans with afk cloaking arose as a result of that. You can't discuss "fixing" afk cloaking without addressing local, because local is the problem.


You really think that, I know people who get around local on the hunt, I also have seen people get caught even with local, the fact is that certain people want it easy, which is what no local will give them, they should HTFU.

People doing AFK cloaking is a play style choice, and personally I would leave cloaking as it is and I have no issues with AFK cloaking, I find it lame, but I have always got around it by doing other things.

if you want no local than go to WH space simple as that!


Sigh. Can't you read, bro? I'm not saying I want to absolutely remove local and make it like wormhole space. Why can't you understand this isn't me yelling "REMOVE LOCAL"? I'm saying local is the reason why "AFK cloaking" exists. That is a simple fact. If people wish to change the nature of "AFK cloaking" they have to address local somehow - not necessarily just removing it entirely.

Dracvlad wrote:
Its not infallible, good players know ho to get around it, its not easy, but its doable. Too many people want Eve on easy!!!


Um, what? It doesn't matter how skilled a pilot you are there is no way to "get around" local reporting your presence to people in system. Local is infallible in that sense: If it lists a player, they are in your system. If it doesn't list a player, they are not in your system. You cannot get around that by being "good". Unless you're referring to the exploit from a couple years ago that allowed people to make themselves not appear in local, but it's been fixed I believe, and even if it wasn't CCP wouldnt tolerate you abusing it.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#44 - 2013-03-19 11:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Cloaking up in system to set up an attack is a legitimate strategy, AFK cloaking just uses the local tool to do area denial which is only as good as the threat that they pose. Changing local with a 10 second delay or whatever makes no difference to this at all, there if nothing short of removing local that will impact AFK cloaking and doing that will make it very difficult to operate in Eve. WH's work because they can scout the entry points and there is of course no cyno, so if someone in a covert ops gets into the WH its no big deal, in 0.0 is a major issue due to the force projection of BLOPS and Titan bridges.

I saw a ROL pilot use that exploit once, he was on grid with us but not in local, as a result I shot ROL whenever I could, I am certainly not referring to lame people who resorted to doing that, they are scum.

In terms of local, some people get upset with the intel based around it, in that they get details of who is moving around their area and how many. I have seen people get around this in various ways, some logging off or finding gaps in the cover in systems that are not visited. Its not charge in and expect to get someone. I saw FA do this very effectively in Cobalt Edge.

In terms of the instant report of someone coming in local, if someone is alert and watching local and is aligned they will get out, so what if that pilot is in warp to the CA in a slow aligning ship, or is scrammed by rats, many ships cannot kite so orbit with AB's on, they take time to warp out. There are some systems of course that are big and therefore getting the jump on them is difficult. Its also not charging in there when people are ratting, its waiting for them to get complacent and they do. Eve is a game of percentages, you try to get as many as you can in your favour. And of course we cannot forget blue scouts who keep an eye on when people are warping to the next CA. As I said its not easy, but those people charging around a region gate to gate are always going to fail because the threat is noted and people are on alert or decide to wait until they go elsewhere.

I have seen a lot of people get caught even with local, its just that the alert ones who know how to set up for getting out are almost impossible to catch and they are being awarded for playing properly, is there anything wrong with that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#45 - 2013-03-19 12:16:19 UTC
You might then give me the reply that people can use D-scan, I use D-scan, but to be blunt I would not be able to use it continiously to check for incoming, its impossible, people don't even do that in WH's they use scouts covering the incoming WH's. So what happens, well the idiots who don't play carefully will not be using D-scan, and people like me will look at the fact that I will have to use D-scan all the time and give up on null and do Incursions, or I would only do sites that need to be scanned down. CCP will not remove local, they would be insane to do so as it will remove a large number of people from null.

I have wondered however like many about removing local from null, what it does do is bring in a huge amount of uncertainty into who is in system, but if you remove local you must remove all the reports like numbers of rats killed in the last hour, number of pilots killed etc, go the whole hog, otherwise your just making it easy for the wham bang I had fun brigade and the more thoughtful long term players will leave the game, is that what you want?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#46 - 2013-03-19 12:43:24 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
CCP will not remove local, they would be insane to do so as it will remove a large number of people from null.


yeah, and would be such a tragedy if null bear would simply come back where they belong: HS....
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#47 - 2013-03-19 12:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
Dracvlad wrote:
You might then give me the reply that people can use D-scan, I use D-scan, but to be blunt I would not be able to use it continiously to check for incoming, its impossible, people don't even do that in WH's they use scouts covering the incoming WH's. So what happens, well the idiots who don't play carefully will not be using D-scan, and people like me will look at the fact that I will have to use D-scan all the time and give up on null and do Incursions, or I would only do sites that need to be scanned down. CCP will not remove local, they would be insane to do so as it will remove a large number of people from null.

I have wondered however like many about removing local from null, what it does do is bring in a huge amount of uncertainty into who is in system, but if you remove local you must remove all the reports like numbers of rats killed in the last hour, number of pilots killed etc, go the whole hog, otherwise your just making it easy for the wham bang I had fun brigade and the more thoughtful long term players will leave the game, is that what you want?


Completely and totally wrong!! D-scan is absolutely the most important tool a WH player has since we have no local to do the same thing. Much of what you describe is already happening in WH so there is no problem with having to do d-scan constantly (or those who don't will die very often). As a matter of fact, almost your entire post describes what happens in WH every day.

The bigger issue is force projection. Going down that road is going to get more of the NS bears out in forum force than most issues so I'll leave it at that.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#48 - 2013-03-19 12:54:38 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
CCP will not remove local, they would be insane to do so as it will remove a large number of people from null.


yeah, and would be such a tragedy if null bear would simply come back where they belong: HS....



So the easier kills would disappear, smart move huh?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#49 - 2013-03-19 13:00:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Onomerous wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You might then give me the reply that people can use D-scan, I use D-scan, but to be blunt I would not be able to use it continiously to check for incoming, its impossible, people don't even do that in WH's they use scouts covering the incoming WH's. So what happens, well the idiots who don't play carefully will not be using D-scan, and people like me will look at the fact that I will have to use D-scan all the time and give up on null and do Incursions, or I would only do sites that need to be scanned down. CCP will not remove local, they would be insane to do so as it will remove a large number of people from null.

I have wondered however like many about removing local from null, what it does do is bring in a huge amount of uncertainty into who is in system, but if you remove local you must remove all the reports like numbers of rats killed in the last hour, number of pilots killed etc, go the whole hog, otherwise your just making it easy for the wham bang I had fun brigade and the more thoughtful long term players will leave the game, is that what you want?


Completely and totally wrong!! D-scan is absolutely the most important tool a WH player has since we have no local to do the same thing. Much of what you describe is already happening in WH so there is no problem with having to do d-scan constantly (or those who don't will die very often). As a matter of fact, almost your entire post describes what happens in WH every day.

The bigger issue is force projection. Going down that road is going to get more of the NS bears out in forum force than most issues so I'll leave it at that.


I was going on what some contacts of mine said about how they operated in WH's, when they had tied down the entrances they were relieved from pressing D-scan all the time, but I am going on what some people said, not my own experience. One of the reasons I do not want to go to WH space is the need to press the D-scan key all the time, I did this in Stain in NPC 0.0 in a contested system with reds in local, so have done it, the other reason for not going to WH space is the POS security issues. But anyway I never said that D-Scan was not an important tool, I just said that there are times that people hit it a lot less because they have all the entry points covered!

Force projection using Cyno's is a major issue, because that covert ops in a WH is no threat, in a 0.0 system its a massive threat just on the basis of what it can bring in.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#50 - 2013-03-19 14:17:59 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Onomerous wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
You might then give me the reply that people can use D-scan, I use D-scan, but to be blunt I would not be able to use it continiously to check for incoming, its impossible, people don't even do that in WH's they use scouts covering the incoming WH's. So what happens, well the idiots who don't play carefully will not be using D-scan, and people like me will look at the fact that I will have to use D-scan all the time and give up on null and do Incursions, or I would only do sites that need to be scanned down. CCP will not remove local, they would be insane to do so as it will remove a large number of people from null.

I have wondered however like many about removing local from null, what it does do is bring in a huge amount of uncertainty into who is in system, but if you remove local you must remove all the reports like numbers of rats killed in the last hour, number of pilots killed etc, go the whole hog, otherwise your just making it easy for the wham bang I had fun brigade and the more thoughtful long term players will leave the game, is that what you want?


Completely and totally wrong!! D-scan is absolutely the most important tool a WH player has since we have no local to do the same thing. Much of what you describe is already happening in WH so there is no problem with having to do d-scan constantly (or those who don't will die very often). As a matter of fact, almost your entire post describes what happens in WH every day.

The bigger issue is force projection. Going down that road is going to get more of the NS bears out in forum force than most issues so I'll leave it at that.


I was going on what some contacts of mine said about how they operated in WH's, when they had tied down the entrances they were relieved from pressing D-scan all the time, but I am going on what some people said, not my own experience. One of the reasons I do not want to go to WH space is the need to press the D-scan key all the time, I did this in Stain in NPC 0.0 in a contested system with reds in local, so have done it, the other reason for not going to WH space is the POS security issues.

Force projection using Cyno's is a major issue, because that covert ops in a WH is no threat, in a 0.0 system its a massive threat just on the basis of what it can bring in.


So there isn't an issue with cloaking, there's an issue with cynos. Gotcha.
Kodama Ikari
Thragon
#51 - 2013-03-19 15:48:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Kodama Ikari
Its a non-issue. Stop making these threads.

Some first-hand PI tips
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#52 - 2013-03-19 15:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
TheGunslinger42 wrote:
So there isn't an issue with cloaking, there's an issue with cynos. Gotcha.


In my opinion there is no issue with cloaking, my issue with cloaking and removing local is that the force projection is too great in terms of risk for 0.0, local balances against that, because you can assess risk.

I made a very important point in terms of game balance in terms of the reporting of such data as NPC kills in the last hour, if you remove local that has to go too, they are perfect intel tools are they not and enable people to quickly find people to gank, without them they would be just as much in the dark as the poor sap without local pressing D-Scan like a crazed fool!!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Ginger Barbarella
#53 - 2013-03-19 16:35:41 UTC
Friggz wrote:
AFK cloakers do not have any effect.

If you as a pilot make a decision to dock up, that is your decision, that is you making it, end of story. The AFK cloaker didn't take control of your ship. It didn't put up a force field around the station.

AFK cloakers don't camp people into stations, extremely risk adverse players who shouldn't be in null sec to begin with do that to themselves.


QFT, and +1.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It's not about wanting or not wanting local, it's about accepting the fact that the local system chat channel being used as an absolutely infallible, instant, and zero effort intel tool is broken and any shenanigans with afk cloaking arose as a result of that. You can't discuss "fixing" afk cloaking without addressing local, because local is the problem.


What?!?!?! Shocked I don't even know how to respond to that... Your FACT is completely stupid. Nothing personal, but you should just remove that post, man... seriously, it's that stupid.

"Blow it all on Quafe and strippers." --- Sorlac
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#54 - 2013-03-20 16:08:30 UTC
The only people truly effected by AFK Cloaking are botters.

By whining about AFK Cloaking, OP has admitted to botting.

Ban OP.

/thread.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#55 - 2013-03-21 08:57:19 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Friggz wrote:
AFK cloakers do not have any effect.

If you as a pilot make a decision to dock up, that is your decision, that is you making it, end of story. The AFK cloaker didn't take control of your ship. It didn't put up a force field around the station.

AFK cloakers don't camp people into stations, extremely risk adverse players who shouldn't be in null sec to begin with do that to themselves.


QFT, and +1.

TheGunslinger42 wrote:
It's not about wanting or not wanting local, it's about accepting the fact that the local system chat channel being used as an absolutely infallible, instant, and zero effort intel tool is broken and any shenanigans with afk cloaking arose as a result of that. You can't discuss "fixing" afk cloaking without addressing local, because local is the problem.


What?!?!?! Shocked I don't even know how to respond to that... Your FACT is completely stupid. Nothing personal, but you should just remove that post, man... seriously, it's that stupid.


No, my fact is quite literally a fact. A mechanic used for chatting with other players - the clue is in the name, it's a chat channel - is being used to provide instant, zero effort, 100% accurate tactical intel. To claim this isn't a fact, that it's "stupid" and the post should be removed is just... it's incomprehensible to me. It's like someone claiming the sky is green.
Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#56 - 2013-03-21 11:08:20 UTC
Paul Panala wrote:
Just wondering, how does everyone feel about AFK cloaking? What I mean, people who go to an enemy system and cloak instead of logging off, then stay there until downtime. Is this a good or bad part of the game?


Maybe you should browse the forums, then you will see this has been discussed no end of times. Roll

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........
Inessa Olacar
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2013-03-22 00:16:00 UTC
Ravnik wrote:
Paul Panala wrote:
Just wondering, how does everyone feel about AFK cloaking? What I mean, people who go to an enemy system and cloak instead of logging off, then stay there until downtime. Is this a good or bad part of the game?


Maybe you should browse the forums, then you will see this has been discussed no end of times. Roll


Any possible topic had been discussed before multiple times. Should we close the forum then?
Stevez Ftw
Tradors'R'us
IChooseYou Alliance
#58 - 2013-03-22 09:38:28 UTC
"#44Posted: 2013.03.19 11:37 | Report | Edited by: Dracvlad
Unlike
1
Cloaking up in system to set up an attack is a legitimate strategy, AFK cloaking just uses the local tool to do area denial which is only as good as the threat that they pose. Changing local with a 10 second delay or whatever makes no difference to this at all, there if nothing short of removing local that will impact AFK cloaking and doing that will make it very difficult to operate in Eve. WH's work because they can scout the entry points and there is of course no cyno, so if someone in a covert ops gets into the WH its no big deal, in 0.0 is a major issue due to the force projection of BLOPS and Titan bridges."

This basically sums up what I was going to say. This is an MMO, going afk for long periods of time without logging off should not be encouraged in my opinion.
Lady Spank
Get Out Nasty Face
#59 - 2013-03-22 20:25:01 UTC
Is local a tool; or is it just full of tools?

(ಠ_ృ) ~ It Takes a Million Years to Become Diamonds So Lets Just Burn Like Coal Until the Sky's Black ~ (ಠ_ృ)
replicator 0001
Nullbear Tear Extractors
Hostile Intervention
#60 - 2013-03-22 23:19:52 UTC
.