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Intergalactic Summit

 
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A Necessary Peace
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Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#161 - 2013-03-17 23:16:55 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Once again, I'll point out who proposed peace the first time around.

Again, negotiation for Caldari Prime must take place with the governments and current residents of Caldari Prime, not the Federation. The Federation is a representative body, not a dictating one.


I realize that I do not know as much about the Federation's internal makeup as you Mr. Inhonores, but I find it hard to believe your goverment works effectively on the level you portray it to. When Caldari Prime was signed over to the State via treaty after the One Day war it wasn't up to the planetary populace, there wasn't a vote in the Federation, it was done by and large by the will of your elected chief official was it not?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#162 - 2013-03-17 23:27:51 UTC
That would have been Otro Gariushi, right? How did THAT proposal end, again?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#163 - 2013-03-18 02:28:28 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Are there Caldari among those who have contributed to this discussion who will make a similar commitment?


I can only echo Tuulinen-haan's wise words. I will support an honourable peace - honourable and amenable to both parties - and I would be very pleased to participate in its formation if the chance arises.

Julianus Soter wrote:
One cannot negotiate with a hostage-taker. The Caldari seem to forget the most base and cruel form of warcrime has been perpetrated on Caldari Prime, keeping the citizens there trapped under the thumb of a massive military occupation, as a token to be traded.


I will consider deeply what you've said, sir. In exchange, I would request that you more deeply consider on your own words as well. I don't think you have yet. Particularly the words you have chosen : that the Caldari are holding Caldari Prime as a hostage.

Consider the implications of ownership that these specific words carry with them.

Thank you, sir.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#164 - 2013-03-18 08:06:25 UTC
Julianus Soter wrote:
One cannot negotiate with a hostage-taker. The Caldari seem to forget the most base and cruel form of warcrime has been perpetrated on Caldari Prime


Actually we remember all too well, Julianus. That's why we keep fighting in Black Rise and it's why we keep fighting on the surface of Home. It's the Federation that seems all too quick to write off their previous warcrimes and dismiss them.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#165 - 2013-03-18 11:09:38 UTC
Julianus Soter wrote:
One cannot negotiate with a hostage-taker.


Funny, we learned that lesson early when the Federation held our entire race hostage to its laws and a political system that incessantly decreased our value.

Julianus Soter wrote:
The Caldari seem to forget the most base and cruel form of warcrime has been perpetrated on Caldari Prime, keeping the citizens there trapped under the thumb of a massive military occupation, as a token to be traded.


We haven't forgotten but we also don't apologize for doing what we feel must be done. It's a far stretch better than simply bombarding the planet from orbit as a first response. That approach was tried before, though not by us.

Julianus Soter wrote:
We do not trade lives in the Federation, we are not slavers.


Yes you do and yes you are. You call them different things but the game is still the same. At least the Empire is honest about it.

You have an alarming lack of perspective, Soter.

~Malcolm Khross
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#166 - 2013-03-18 18:33:24 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
That would have been Otro Gariushi, right? How did THAT proposal end, again?


Otro Gariushi didn't make a peace proposal, he organized a summit to listen to a peace proposal that had been previously made by the Federation. Tragically, the Malkalen disaster took from us both his life, and the willingness of any Caldari leader to follow his path since. It is clear now that Tibus Heth never wanted peace. He wanted only power, and has now proven how willing he is to shed even the blood of his own people to keep that power.

And for what? A rational man uses a position of superior strategic advantage to advance further goals. His position as Executor of the Caldari State has given Tibus Heth unprecedented control over its foriegn policy. The presence of a Caldari Navy Leviathan in the home system of the Federation grants an absurdly strong position to dictate terms. If Heth wanted to negotiate, there would be negotiations. What he wants instead is to perpetuate this war, because war has always been his aim. Obviously many of those loyal to the State who have participated in this discussion share that aim.

Be that as it may, even warmongers must make some concessions to humanity if they are at all civilized. Heth's War will continue, of that I have no doubt. Let us at least protect the lives of the civilian population of Caldari Prime from becoming more sacrifices to Tibus Heth's thirst for power and death.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#167 - 2013-03-18 20:45:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Pieter Tuulinen
So it was Heth that arranged the destruction of Malkalen and Otro Gariushi? I would remind you that it was NOT a Caldari Navy Wyvern that ploughed into that Ishukone station. Clearly there are people who profit from the continuation of the war on both sides - and I include your boss Julianus Soter, who virtually defines himself according to the damage he's done my people.

It is obvious that prolonging the war props up a position that isn't even traditionally necessary within the State, I won't argue against your impeccable logic there - but you're forgetting that the Megacorporations still have extensive autonomy. The CEP can still vote to terminate the Executor's tenure. Have there been envoys between the Federation and the Megacorps?

Isn't it completely self-evident that the quickest and most foolproof way to remove the Executor and the CPD from their current position of power is to stop providing the State with a reason for their existence? If the Federation were to honour Foiritain's cedeing of Caldari Prime to the State and table a desire to end the War, what reason would the State have to follow the Executor anymore? It's YOU that are placing us in the Emergency that sustains his emergency powers!

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#168 - 2013-03-19 04:42:18 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
So it was Heth that arranged the destruction of Malkalen and Otro Gariushi? I would remind you that it was NOT a Caldari Navy Wyvern that ploughed into that Ishukone station. Clearly there are people who profit from the continuation of the war on both sides - and I include your boss Julianus Soter, who virtually defines himself according to the damage he's done my people.

It is obvious that prolonging the war props up a position that isn't even traditionally necessary within the State, I won't argue against your impeccable logic there - but you're forgetting that the Megacorporations still have extensive autonomy. The CEP can still vote to terminate the Executor's tenure. Have there been envoys between the Federation and the Megacorps?

Isn't it completely self-evident that the quickest and most foolproof way to remove the Executor and the CPD from their current position of power is to stop providing the State with a reason for their existence? If the Federation were to honour Foiritain's cedeing of Caldari Prime to the State and table a desire to end the War, what reason would the State have to follow the Executor anymore? It's YOU that are placing us in the Emergency that sustains his emergency powers!


I know exactly what class of ship crashed into the Ishukone station, and I never said anything about Heth arranging it. Frankly, I don't believe the man has that level of sophistication. I believe he was content to conveniently exploit Otro's death and turn it to his advantage. Its disappointing how eager he and the Caldari people were to turn away from the peace Otro Gariushi worked for and died trying to bring to fruition.

As for the Megas, I think we have seen some evidence of backchannel contact between certain factions. Certainly not the "Patriot" blocs that have held so much sway in Heth's regime, however.

I don't know what you expect the Federation to do to "stop providing the State with a reason" to follow Heth. You chose him of your own accord. You wanted blood, and you have had it. I don't believe for an instant that any other Empire in New Eden would be content to bow to the kind of aggression that Tibus Heth has inflicted on the Federation. Despite that, you have seen the good faith efforts of Gallente citizens like myself, or Che Biklo propose peaceful resolutions that honor Caldari Sovereignty of your beloved "Home." There have always been vocal "Doves" in the Federation Senate, though I have never considered myself among their supporters. True, they may be castigated by the right wing in the Holonews, but at least we aren't forcing them to drink poisoned tea.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#169 - 2013-03-19 07:07:31 UTC
Well maybe you should bring a bit of 'Reason' into your deliberations!

You forget, it isn't Patriots that give Heth his power - the Patriot bloc abhors the liberties that Heth has taken with Caldari Tradtion while acknowledging that the current state of Emergency makes them necessary. You're mistaking us for the Practicals, who are more than ready to discard tradition when expedient, and the Provists who think the war will benefit the State.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#170 - 2013-03-19 11:25:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Lialus Raithe
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
I do not want to bequeath this war to my children and their children's children. If there is truly a way towards an honourable peace, then I'll support it - whichever side of the line it comes from.


I share this sentiment and commend the wisdom behind it.

Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
You forget, it isn't Patriots that give Heth his power - the Patriot bloc abhors the liberties that Heth has taken with Caldari Tradtion while acknowledging that the current state of Emergency makes them necessary. You're mistaking us for the Practicals, who are more than ready to discard tradition when expedient, and the Provists who think the war will benefit the State.


Not so much 'forget' as simply not understanding to begin with, at least in my case. I do not fully understand the political division within the State, I've never had a Caldari educate me on it. What I do know is that Heth remains in power, as unfortunate as that may be for either side, and that there are plenty of Caldari that both support and oppose him.

I do believe Heth and the Provists are the primary obstacle to a peaceful resolution to the conflict (that is not to deny the presence of other obstacles), but it is truly not my place, nor the place of my comrades to dictate to the Caldari how they should govern themselves. We've made that mistake before.

The State will deal with its internal matters when it is able and I suspect a bit of compliance on our part will expedite that process. If Caldari Prime remains the sticking point to Heth's leadership, then let us please set aside our pride and sincerely and honestly discuss what can be done about the situation.

It seems to be, in my humble opinion, the surest way for both sides to get what they want.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#171 - 2013-03-19 19:40:26 UTC
Mister Raithe, yours is the calm voice of reason that is most needed in this debate. When I listen to your words, and Miss Vero's and Anslo's, I wonder how we ever came to the place we are at now. But then I remember Mekhana's ghoulish thirst for Caldari blood at any cost and on any pretext and Julianus Soter's trading of blood for prestige and I remember.

There may still be a chance for that quiet voice to pierce the hurricane howl of present policies, but I have to be honest that my hope is at a low ebb.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Anslo
Scope Works
#172 - 2013-03-19 19:59:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Mister Raithe, yours is the calm voice of reason that is most needed in this debate. When I listen to your words, and Miss Vero's and Anslo's, I wonder how we ever came to the place we are at now. But then I remember Mekhana's ghoulish thirst for Caldari blood at any cost and on any pretext and Julianus Soter's trading of blood for prestige and I remember.

There may still be a chance for that quiet voice to pierce the hurricane howl of present policies, but I have to be honest that my hope is at a low ebb.


Stop it you big meat head, you're making me blush.

[center]-_For the Proveldtariat_/-[/center]
Quazipan Arnoux
New Rise
#173 - 2013-03-20 03:01:20 UTC
James Syagrius wrote:
The patriotic efforts of those loyal to the Federation living on Luminaire VII, both Caldari and Gallente, to oppose the State occupation, must be supported.


Isn't this an interesting coincidence? Still up to your old ways I see.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#174 - 2013-03-21 07:06:39 UTC
Following the public statement made by Admiral Visera Yanala I am curious to know what effort is being made on the part of Federation and Caldari diplomats to work towards her stated goal of "a peaceful resolution of the troubles on Caldari Prime."

Now is the time for a diplomatic solution, before it is too late. I hope and pray that Admiral Yanala's reinstatement will instill restraint in the Caldari Providence Directorate forces, but the situation continues to spiral towards a flashpoint.