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BREAKING NEWS: Amarr Empire Opens Their Arms to Outcast Clone Soldiers
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Kallo Unarmored
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-03-18 19:44:24 UTC
Samira Kernher
[i wrote:
"Only through many hardships
Is a man stripped to his very foundations
And in such a state
Devoid of distractions
Is his soul free to soar
And in this
He is closest to God"[/i]
- The Scriptures, Book of Missions 42:5

"Chosen, you are first before God.
You are the True and the Faithful.
But in such a state must you hold yourselves high above all.
And constantly prove yourself worthy of Gods Love.
How can such a gift be repaid,
Other than to toil all our days,
In His glorious service,
According to His will,
Serving Him always,
Bearing Him first in our thoughts,
Always must we strive to show Him our worth,
For we are the Chosen, Blessed above all."
- The Scriptures, Anoyia's Exhortation to the Faithful


All in the Empire toil in the service of God. Slaves labor, but so do the Chosen. Many voluntarily work alongside slaves. Many practice the same forms of punishment upon themselves for their own sins. The only difference is that slaves, who are still at risk of succumbing to temptation, are given few freedoms so that they might be properly taught without falling back into sin. That is why slavery exists. It is to provide spiritual education in an environment where the individual will be unable to exercise the sins that will lead them away from God. It is harsh, but what is right is often difficult, and I for one am grateful that my Holder and my custodian cared enough about my soul to set me upon the road to salvation.

Once the slave has embraced God's light, they are freed. We who are freed will still toil, as all in the Empire toil in the name of God, but we have greater freedoms because we are no longer at risk of giving in to our temptations. Eternal slavery would be nothing but a sign that the Holder is refusing to teach his servants and thus he would be punished for it and his slave given to a Holder who will provide proper spiritual education. It is the same reason why TCMCs are banned in all properly devoted regions of the Empire, and the same reason why the Empire is opposed to "true slavery" organizations like Sansha's Nation and the Angel Cartel, whom care nothing for their slaves' spiritual salvation and only for what economic benefit they can provide.


That sounds like a bunch of social justification for a practice that is older and proved to help the society grow; I do wonder sometimes. What came first, the slaves or their religion?
You give people no hope they revolt because death will be better, you give them a small chance of escaping they take it after great mental trauma mixed with proximity and stress. It’s all basic psychology if you think about it.
Kallo Unarmored
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-03-18 19:47:21 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Bear in mind these are my personal opinions and I am in no way speaking for the Empire as a whole.

Kallo Unarmored wrote:
They give vitoc to children then expect clone soldiers to 'trust' them. Heh, I'm staying the heck away from Amarr space and so should the rest of them.



Would you rather slave overseers withhold Vitoc and allow those children to suffer and die from Vitoxin? Vitoc is a treatment method for managing Vitoxin. Now obviously it would be better to just not use Vitoxin at all, that I'll absolutely agree with. It's a horrible method, but try to remember the distinction between Vitoc and Vitoxin.

As for the rest of the conversation. Slavery is not the only path to a pious and righteous life within the Empire. The Reclaiming is not just about enslaving the rest of humanity. Slavery is (ideally) not about providing a workforce for Imperial efforts. Generational slavery is, at best, a negligent mockery of sacred responsibility to enlighten others. Children are born innocent of the sins of their forebears. To be perfectly honest I find the institution of generational slavery to be a precarious step down a similar path as the followers of Ocilanian interpretation of Scripture.

Now, the Empress has declared that any clone soldiers seeking refuge will be allowed to settle on a planet within the Empire. They will receive medical and psychiatric treatment, vocational training to become productive and potentially able to make their Safe Haven colony self sufficient. They will not be enslaved, they will however not be allowed to leave the colony, presumably until they demonstrate to be sufficiently rehabilitated and pose no real threat to the wider population. I don't see that restriction as anything too dissimilar to rehabilitation and probation of the mentally ill or the criminally convicted within other nations.


Chalk it up to paranoia but I don't trust a word that comes out of any politician's mouth.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#43 - 2013-03-18 21:20:56 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Vitalia why do you even care? You're a Sabik, a twisted heretical offshoot of the "true" Amarr religion (according to your own kind). Since you feel the faith the rest of the Empire practices is false why stand up for the government and people who believe in it?


It is always....complicated among family. Siblings may quarrel, and quarrel fiercely.... yet suffer no loss of love and affection.

And love is what I have in my heart for all my wayward True Amarr Brothers and Sisters.

That I find their faith misplaced does not mean I will stand by idly and have it mischaracterized by Heathen outsiders.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#44 - 2013-03-18 21:36:42 UTC
Astroyka wrote:


While I thank you for your offer, and those that have made the same in the past, I will state the same reasons why I can't accept:

1) My militia status wouldn't go down too well with your navy.
2) My adverse reaction if a slave served me a cocktail.
3) My extremely busy diary.



I do not extend such things casually; perhaps you do not realize to whom you are speaking. Offer withdrawn.




Sabik now, Sabik forever
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-03-18 21:42:05 UTC
Kallo Unarmored wrote:
Chalk it up to paranoia but I don't trust a word that comes out of any politician's mouth.


The Empress is not just some grubby politician, handing out election promises in the hopes of being re-elected. She has her position for life, and the Amarr consider her will to be the will of God. I imagine she speaks carefully in public, and does not take kindly to her promises being contradicted.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#46 - 2013-03-18 22:24:34 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
Kallo Unarmored wrote:
Chalk it up to paranoia but I don't trust a word that comes out of any politician's mouth.


The Empress is not just some grubby politician, handing out election promises in the hopes of being re-elected. She has her position for life, and the Amarr consider her will to be the will of God. I imagine she speaks carefully in public, and does not take kindly to her promises being contradicted.


If you imagine anyone in a position of power to be something other than a politician, you are badly mistaken. That Sarum conducts herself differently than Roden is a consequence of a different political environment, not somehow being above politics.

In any event, this is hardly a magnanimous offer. It comes with the usual Amarr claptrap about choosing either 'willing' reclamation or forced enslavement ('submit or be enslaved' isn't an offer, just a test of dignity). Spero's brethren aren't being offered refuge; they're being offered the chance to shackle themselves to the Empire. They'd be idiots to accept it unless they like the idea of being Sarum's pet attack dogs. I expect those with even a quantum of pride will refuse.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#47 - 2013-03-18 22:35:38 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
('submit or be enslaved' isn't an offer, just a test of dignity)


Unless I misread, I believe the offer was 'submit or find sanctuary somewhere else'. No mention of slavery other than they [the clone soldiers] were not going to be enslaved. How does the Republic feel about this? Am I missing their statement on the matter?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#48 - 2013-03-18 23:16:11 UTC
You missed the point. An offer of sanctuary that comes with a demand for allegiance is not an offer of sanctuary.
Adel Khamez
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#49 - 2013-03-18 23:37:31 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
You missed the point. An offer of sanctuary that comes with a demand for allegiance is not an offer of sanctuary.


They are welcome to retire. I'm sure something could be found for them.

If they wish to continue the trade they are trained for, they will have to find mercenary work that the Empress approves of, of course.

I suspect Mercenaries that worked to, perhaps, prevent more buildings from being toppled on Caldari Prime by killing Gallente terrorists just might not be welcomed by Gallente officials?

All factions have their own ideas of what acceptable employment consists of.

Amarr Victor, Deus Vult!
Fay Aexiss
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#50 - 2013-03-19 00:07:41 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
You missed the point. An offer of sanctuary that comes with a demand for allegiance is not an offer of sanctuary.

An offering of a safe haven with care from "the best scientists and doctors in the Empire" and education in the Amarrian way of life is hardly a demand of allegiance.

The alternative is, of course, being purged, ostracized, and held in contempt by the other nations of the galaxy. The Empress offers refuge to these lost souls and protection from such cruel and vile treatment. A generous, noble gesture on her part, showing the compassion of the Empire - a compassion others appear to be lacking.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#51 - 2013-03-19 00:20:50 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:
You missed the point. An offer of sanctuary that comes with a demand for allegiance is not an offer of sanctuary.


No, I understand your point but sanctuary rarely comes without a price. Those fleeing the true death will unfortunately have to either pay it or look elsewhere.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#52 - 2013-03-19 00:34:43 UTC
Fay Aexiss wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
You missed the point. An offer of sanctuary that comes with a demand for allegiance is not an offer of sanctuary.

An offering of a safe haven with care from "the best scientists and doctors in the Empire" and education in the Amarrian way of life is hardly a demand of allegiance.

The alternative is, of course, being purged, ostracized, and held in contempt by the other nations of the galaxy. The Empress offers refuge to these lost souls and protection from such cruel and vile treatment. A generous, noble gesture on her part, showing the compassion of the Empire - a compassion others appear to be lacking.


And all they have to do is bend a knee, submit to being 'Reclaimed', and obey the Empress. And all this presupposes there is something wrong with them.

Quote:
No, I understand your point but sanctuary rarely comes without a price. Those fleeing the true death will unfortunately have to either pay it or look elsewhere.


And I reiterate: if you use an offer of refuge to extract something from those seeking refuge, you are an opportunist, not a benefactor.

Let me ask you: will these soldiers be permitted to leave if they change their mind? Because the Amarrian press release rather strongly implies that those who refuse to submit will be enslaved.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#53 - 2013-03-19 01:17:03 UTC
Milton Middleson wrote:

And I reiterate: if you use an offer of refuge to extract something from those seeking refuge, you are an opportunist, not a benefactor.

Let me ask you: will these soldiers be permitted to leave if they change their mind? Because the Amarrian press release rather strongly implies that those who refuse to submit will be enslaved.


No need to reiterate. You call it what you want, I have no issue with your interpretation, it however still remains to date the only real option they have.

As for your question: Likely not, no. I imagine its is being considered much like an insane asylum. You don't let a mad man go because he doesn't want to get better anymore because you endanger not only him, but the general populace as well. If these soldiers willfully submit themselves to these stipulations then later decide they do not wish to honor their commitment after they've reaped the rewards, or decide they no longer wish to receive treatment, then I highly doubt they will be set free.

No one is forcing them to go to the Empire, and its not your right or mine to make demands of the people offering services. They could just as well commit to the purge with the Federation and State. At least they are offering a solution, one with strings of course, but a solution none the less. Its very much a take it or leave it situation.

I also do not see anything in the statement that suggests they will be enslaved if they refuse. If you don't mind, would you please point to me what is said that makes you come to that conclusion?

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#54 - 2013-03-19 01:18:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Milton Middleson wrote:
Fay Aexiss wrote:
Milton Middleson wrote:
You missed the point. An offer of sanctuary that comes with a demand for allegiance is not an offer of sanctuary.

An offering of a safe haven with care from "the best scientists and doctors in the Empire" and education in the Amarrian way of life is hardly a demand of allegiance.

The alternative is, of course, being purged, ostracized, and held in contempt by the other nations of the galaxy. The Empress offers refuge to these lost souls and protection from such cruel and vile treatment. A generous, noble gesture on her part, showing the compassion of the Empire - a compassion others appear to be lacking.


And all they have to do is bend a knee, submit to being 'Reclaimed', and obey the Empress. And all this presupposes there is something wrong with them.


Reports by all four empires indicate that yes, there is something wrong. Three of the empires believe that that wrongness is something worth exterminating. The Empire, on the other hand, wants to give them aid so that they might be cured. Yet you'd rather paint us as the villains?

Quote:
Let me ask you: will these soldiers be permitted to leave if they change their mind? Because the Amarrian press release rather strongly implies that those who refuse to submit will be enslaved.


The report implies nothing of the sort. Those who refuse to accept the offer are outside the Empire and therefore not under our authority.

And even if it did? It's still better than the extermination they'll face at the hands of the other empires.
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2013-03-19 04:49:05 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Right, I forgot that your justification is "To bring savage people to the light of our God" or something along those lines.

The reason why your Empire was able to expand so rapidly was because of Slavery whether you want to acknowledge it or not. You can get things done a lot quicker when you can have thousands of people work for no pay in horrible conditions with nothing more than "God's Will" to justify it.

You can sugar coat it all you want, but at the end of the day, you hold slaves to provide a source of labor. Whether or not it's a bad thing to do is an entirely different debate (I think it is, but that's beside the point). Your Empire uses Slaves to handle labor and whatever your people don't want to do.

What you might claim the reason is, is a justification to your own people and the rest of New Eden.


If economy was the main reason that we have slaves, why did we free the 9th generation, and so many before them? What you don't seem to understand is that the Empire is a scientific and technologically advanced society, if we wanted to change manual labour for robotic one, like the Caldari use, we could do so. It's not a matter of having extra work-hands at our disposal.

The reason slavery exists is to teach people that we all are slaves to the Empire. Some willingly, like myself, and some unwillingly. The first no longer need to be considered slaves, as they've understood their place in society. The others must remain in that state until they learn that harsh and important lesson.

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#56 - 2013-03-19 05:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mensha Khael Crow
The predictable and irrelevant opposition to Amarrian benevolence to these unfortunates aside.

I and I indeed hope some of my brethren in Faith join me, would much rather hear further clarification on how the term reclaiming was used in this article. Was this a reporter misinterpreting the words of the Imperial throne, as we know to have happened before.

Or is the Imperial Throne indeed of the opinion these clone soldiers actually retain their souls through the copying of their conciousness to new bodies? And if indeed this latter is the case I, and I suspect many others, will be looking forward to Theology Councils comments on the matter and how this could change the finer points of cloning as it pertains to Amarrian theology as approved by the Theology Council.


as Concord recognized CEO of Empyrean House Murder.
Mensha Khael Crow
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#57 - 2013-03-19 05:24:11 UTC
Mensha Khael Crow wrote:
Or is the Imperial Throne indeed of the opinion these clone soldiers actually retain their souls through the copying of their conciousness to new bodies? And if indeed this latter is the case I, and I suspect many others, will be looking forward to Theology Councils comments on the matter and how this could change the finer points of cloning as it pertains to Amarrian theology as approved by the Theology Council.


His Excellency the Baron makes an... excellent point.

I had not considered such ramifications, but instead contented myself merely with that warm glow emanating, naturally, from an association with the most civilized of Empires. Her Majesty elevates - not only the body, but also the spirit.

Day began Golden, and night shines brighter, yet!
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#58 - 2013-03-19 05:26:15 UTC
Quote:
The report implies nothing of the sort. Those who refuse to accept the offer are outside the Empire and therefore not under our authority.


Jamyl Sarum wrote:
If they come to us, they shall be Reclaimed into God's service and find a new purpose.

Pomik Haromi wrote:
Those who are willingly Reclaimed shall not be slaves. We will allow them to live freely within their colonies, alongside their caretakers.

It looks an awful lot to me like anyone foolish enough to accept Amarrian 'charity' won't be given the liberty to change their mind. If they decide they'd rather not be obedient little servants of the Empire, their gilded chains will be taken away and replaced with more common ones. Hence, you'd be an idiot to accept this offer.

Quote:
Reports by all four empires indicate that yes, there is something wrong.

My, my. The CONCORD signatories create a breed of immortal warriors, only to discover they're not especially loyal or politically reliable. Who could have seen this coming? If only there had been historical precedent.

Quote:
And even if it did? It's still better than the extermination they'll face at the hands of the other empires.

Fortuitously, we dwell in the realm of reality rather than of false dichotomies, so the choices are a bit more varied than slavery or death. Especially for immortals.
Samira Kernher
Cail Avetatu
#59 - 2013-03-19 07:57:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Samira Kernher
Milton Middleson wrote:
Quote:
The report implies nothing of the sort. Those who refuse to accept the offer are outside the Empire and therefore not under our authority.


Jamyl Sarum wrote:
If they come to us, they shall be Reclaimed into God's service and find a new purpose.

Pomik Haromi wrote:
Those who are willingly Reclaimed shall not be slaves. We will allow them to live freely within their colonies, alongside their caretakers.

It looks an awful lot to me like anyone foolish enough to accept Amarrian 'charity' won't be given the liberty to change their mind. If they decide they'd rather not be obedient little servants of the Empire, their gilded chains will be taken away and replaced with more common ones. Hence, you'd be an idiot to accept this offer.


But those who do not accept it, and do not come to the Empire, will not be enslaved. Which was the point I was making. You had implied that the report stated that all who refused, whether they were in the Empire or not, would be enslaved.

Those who do come, and then decide to change their minds, will likely not be allowed to leave, no, as reports indicate they would be a threat to society if free. That is why the other empires are exterminating them.

Quote:
My, my. The CONCORD signatories create a breed of immortal warriors, only to discover they're not especially loyal or politically reliable. Who could have seen this coming? If only there had been historical precedent.


It is not about loyalty or political reliability, that is not the reason these purges are being done. The reports say that the original implants make the wearers go mad. They need psychiatric and spiritual aid.
Kallo Unarmored
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-03-19 19:31:31 UTC
Samira Kernher wrote:


It is not about loyalty or political reliability, that is not the reason these purges are being done. The reports say that the original implants make the wearers go mad. They need psychiatric and spiritual aid.


They eventually do, but I still wouldn't trust Amarr to have the clone soldier's best interests at heart. Too good to be true if one follows history.