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A message for all Caldari Capsuleers
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Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#41 - 2013-03-18 13:02:10 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:

I'll say right here and right now that I've not been brainwashed or converted. I remain loyal to the State and its ideals. If you have concerns about the programme, I recommend that you just come and visit us in the AVCL lounge and talk to some of the people in the Praetoria. I've found that they are warriors just like us. There are cultural differences, sure, but there is a basis for mutual respect and appreciation.


Lad, I've got great respect for our allies in the Empire. I also have great respect for our ancestors. The Empire revitalized our crippled economy and we have been economic partners since, but to give the Empire credit for the war we're fighting is not only dishonorable to us but to them as well.

To give the Empire credit for the original recognition of our independence simply because they were found to be a greater threat by the Federation is foolishness. You're essentially crediting the Empire for existing as it made no official effort to direct the Federation's opinions and notions.

~Malcolm Khross
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-03-18 13:18:40 UTC
Khross-haan, my opening message argued strategy, not merit. If favourable winds turn the tide of a battle, it surely does not dishonour the soldiers who fought that battle to say that it did.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#43 - 2013-03-18 16:33:09 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
Louvaki-haan and Unit XS365BT,

It is generally accepted as a historical fact that the Gallente only agreed to a peace treaty after they made first contact with the Amarr Empire and decided they were likely to be a bigger threat. If you want to challenge that notion based on dates alone, I suggest that you start an NPOV-dispute on the talk pages of some of this cluster's more reliable encyclopaedia's.


Enderas-haan,

It is also generally an accepted historical fact that the war had been little more than a dull drum beat at that point as well.

I'm not disputing or challenging that the Amarr Empire's emergence into the political playing field hastened the cooling of diplomatic relations between the State and Federation, but I do challenge this notion that our continued existence and independence was certainly not assured by it; Our State had already been independent for some time by then and did not need to fear the heel of Federal tyranny.

It was known by both us and them after the battle of Iyen-Oursta that neither of us had the ability end the war through force of military might. As a matter of fact, most historians will attribute the attritions after Iyen-Oursta to the inevitable cease fire more than the intorduction of Amarr.

The War Drones On wrote:
With frigates the Caldari managed the stem the tide of the advancing Federation and before long stalemate again ensued. Slowly, normal life returned for most people, the war became a distant thunderstorm that only occasionally rattled the populace as a whole. Neither side was willing to offer peace for fear of it being taken as a sign of weakness, but the new generation growing up on both sides was willing to sacrifice itself for such an uncertain cause, so the war slowly faded into small-scale border skirmishes and raids. The matter was finally settled when CONCORD, at that point a relatively new entity that had yet to truly establish itself, decided that the war, posing as it did a threat to New Eden’s diplomatic and economic stability, had gone on long enough. Sensing tiredness on both sides after the Iyen-Oursta battle, they used the opportunity to open peace talks between the two obstinate adversaries and were, within six months, able to broker a ceasefire agreement acceptable to both sides. The Federation acknowledged the Caldari state as sovereign and both sides were to retain their original outposts and settlements, except for Caldari Prime, which remained under Federation control.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#44 - 2013-03-18 17:23:34 UTC
While I have great respect for the Amarr, especially after years of close coordination with PIE and CVA, the Caldari State cannot be dependent on any outside entity. Let us not fool ourselves; our alliance exists purely as a counterweight to the Gallente and their puppets in the Republic, and were that to disappear we they would not be nearly so friendly. We do not share their religion or their culture, and they are a proud people who have looked constantly outward throughout their history, while we have traditionally been content to be left alone to our own affairs when we are allowed to.

This is why the disaster that has been Heth's illegal regime has caused even more damage than many realize; our economic strength is the backbone of our defense, the key to keeping the Amarr as dependent upon us as we are upon them. Policies like the CAESA and disastrous military ventures put that at risk. If we are to remain strong and truly independent, we must return to the traditions of our forefathers and look inward, not go begging to others, even if they are our friends.
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2013-03-18 21:29:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Knoot Enderas
Simon Louvaki wrote:
[Enderas-haan,

It is also generally an accepted historical fact that the war had been little more than a dull drum beat at that point as well.

I'm not disputing or challenging that the Amarr Empire's emergence into the political playing field hastened the cooling of diplomatic relations between the State and Federation, but I do challenge this notion that our continued existence and independence was certainly not assured by it; Our State had already been independent for some time by then and did not need to fear the heel of Federal tyranny.

It was known by both us and them after the battle of Iyen-Oursta that neither of us had the ability end the war through force of military might. As a matter of fact, most historians will attribute the attritions after Iyen-Oursta to the inevitable cease fire more than the intorduction of Amarr.


Louvaki-haan, I do not think we are coming at this from entirely different sides. The trouble, I suppose, is that your assertion can only be affirmed by playing out an alternative history scenario where the Amarr Empire does not exist, and its presence therefore does not influence the strategic thinking of Federal policymakers. For example, in preventing the Gallente from simply throwing all their available forces against the nascent State.

I remain strongly convinced that first contact with the Amarr Empire turned diplomatic relations in the cluster from a mostly unipolar system into a mostly bipolar system. True, the actual alliance is a fairly recent thing, but power-relations and ideological preferences aren't likely to change radically within the next hundred years or so.

Svetlana Scarlet wrote:
While I have great respect for the Amarr, especially after years of close coordination with PIE and CVA, the Caldari State cannot be dependent on any outside entity. Let us not fool ourselves; our alliance exists purely as a counterweight to the Gallente and their puppets in the Republic, and were that to disappear we they would not be nearly so friendly. We do not share their religion or their culture, and they are a proud people who have looked constantly outward throughout their history, while we have traditionally been content to be left alone to our own affairs when we are allowed to.

This is why the disaster that has been Heth's illegal regime has caused even more damage than many realize; our economic strength is the backbone of our defense, the key to keeping the Amarr as dependent upon us as we are upon them. Policies like the CAESA and disastrous military ventures put that at risk. If we are to remain strong and truly independent, we must return to the traditions of our forefathers and look inward, not go begging to others, even if they are our friends.


Scarlet-haani, I do not think that considering our alliance as a counterweight to the Gallente is a bad thing, as you seem to imply. The State and the Empire have a mutually beneficial relationship, which is infinity preferable to either party relying on the pity of the other side.

On a personal note, I believe it is a nostalgic fantasy to think that we can go back to an isolationist, inward-looking state. Capsuleers can fly between Imperial Trade Hubs quicker and more easily than it would have taken a pre-industrial Caldari farmer to take his goods to the local market. We live in an interconnected cluster, and as the most efficient race of all, we are best placed to reap the rewards of peace.
Svetlana Scarlet
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#46 - 2013-03-18 21:59:35 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
On a personal note, I believe it is a nostalgic fantasy to think that we can go back to an isolationist, inward-looking state. Capsuleers can fly between Imperial Trade Hubs quicker and more easily than it would have taken a pre-industrial Caldari farmer to take his goods to the local market. We live in an interconnected cluster, and as the most efficient race of all, we are best placed to reap the rewards of peace.


There is a difference between isolationism and self-sufficiency. I argue for the latter.
Knoot Enderas
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-03-18 22:04:39 UTC
I don't imagine we disagree then, Scarlet-haani.
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#48 - 2013-03-19 01:15:06 UTC
Knoot Enderas wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
Absolutely not. If anything, the Empire's existence should be driving the Caldari and Gallente back together again.

There is a lot that could be gained by working together, notably the defense of both homeworlds, and the formation of a superpower that could dominate the entire cluster through trade, technology, and possibly even population. But of course, that won't happen, we're so quick to forgive and forget our own mistakes as a race, yet we never forget what the "enemy side" did to us decades, or centuries ago.

It's like watching an old married couple that started out well together and now just hate each other, despite the fact they're better off being together than going their separate ways.

What you suggest here effectively amounts to rejoining the Federation. Remarriage? Really? I've suggested nothing even remotely as close to what is suggested here, with regards to the Empire. Most working-class Caldari would find even the suggestion that we would form one Superpower with the Federation quite offensive.

What most working-class Caldari think we should do is irrelevant. Last time I checked, the State was supposedly a meritocracy, where the best ideas and people rose to the top, not some populist dictatorship... oh, wait.

Rejoining the Fed, you say? That will never happen, nor should it. But a supranational organization, essentially a firm, equal alliance between two partners with common vested interests... that could potentially happen, and I believe it should happen. I'd much rather have to deal with a joint Caldari-Gallente hegemony in the cluster than a cluster dominated by the Amarr and their vassals.

The Empire is far more stable than either the State or the Fed. They have time on their side, a stable system that guarantees slow but steady development of their civilization into the future. The State and the Fed are, relatively speaking, far more chaotic, and while that has brought about great advances, it is also inherently unstable. The last thing I want is the Caldari and Gallente slowly grinding down each other while the Amarr steadily progress, and grow stronger with time.

The only way this is going to have a chance of happening is to frankly convince the xenophobes and the nationalists of both sides to lay down their arms. And by that, I mean kill them all, and try not to create new ones.

Glory

Faded Light is recruiting
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